Talk:Oklahoma City bombing

Conspiracy theories

I dislike using the term as a heading, as it's emotionally loaded. Nevertheless, CZ: Neutrality Policy certainly calls for alternate views. Here's what I removed, with references below:

==Conspiracy theories==

As with many major national incidents, a number of conspiracy theories have come into existence regarding the attack and the FBI investiagion that followed. These include accusations of a link between McVeigh and the Elohim City white nationalist compound, and accusations that the federal authorities knew of McVeigh's plans and pulled out FBI and ATF agents, leaving only civilian workers.

My problem is that the theories are coming from clearly non-neutral sources. To me, neutrality policy is not just putting up the views of some advocacy sites against the mainstream position, but showing rebuttals to the allegations. In some cases, there may be no rebuttal, partially because the allegations are not terribly specific -- it's hard to respond to innuendoes. In the particular case, I believe that some of the allegations were addressed specifically in the trial, and, whether or not one agrees with the information, neutrality calls for comparing and contrasting the allegations with things established under rules of evidence in a public trial.

For that matter, some of the allegations need at least redlinks. I have never heard of Elohim City before. I would note, however, that there was a substantial amount of circumstantial connection with the Branch Davidians, possibly Ruby Ridge and with the Turner Diaries. Should these not be addressed? McVeigh never really gave his reasons.

When the issues were not addressed, there still may be counterarguments with decent sourcing. Both sides need to be present, or it's no more useful than a "trivia" section. Howard C. Berkowitz 19:44, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Article title

Is there a reason 1995 is included in the title? It's not as if there are bombs going off all the time in OKC that we'd need to differentiate.. --Todd Coles 19:47, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Good question, Todd; let me explain my reasoning. First, there have been instances of terrorist attacks on the same facility that absolutely need disambiguation, such as the 1993 and 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center. Second, a number of recent events involved simultaneous or near-simultaneous events, such as 1983 Beirut barracks bombing. While I haven't yet written on the (April) 1983 bombing of the U.S. embassy in Beirut, there have been a lot of embassy bombings, such as 1998 attacks on U.S. Embassies in Africa (in Kenya and Tanzania, about an hour apart).

In general, I find it useful to have dates in the names of terrorist attacks. Howard C. Berkowitz 19:53, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

But, and I think this was Todd's point...we don't expect any more terrorist bombings in Oklahoma City. Beirut, yes. U.S. embassies in Africa, sure. Are you defending it as a general rule that we should have years before all terrorist bombings? I'm not sure I would support such a rule. --Larry Sanger 19:55, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Increasingly, there has been a need to include dates in wars and military events from the mid-19th century forward. As an example, it recently became obvious that we had no politically neutral way to refer to current conflict in Afghanistan; we now have Afghanistan War (2001-) and Afghanistan War (1978-92), and will eventually need First Anglo-Afghan War (1839-42) and Second Anglo-Afghan War (1878-80). Unfortunately, while some wars may be called first or second, not all countries agree on the ordinal numberings.

When dealing with a pattern of actions in asymmetrical warfare, the date may be as or more important than the place. I'm perfectly happy with redirects, but I do think there is a need to have dated as well as named titles. There will be individual variations; few need "2001" in association with "9/11". Nevertheless, yes, I do suggest that as a general rule. Howard C. Berkowitz 20:17, 8 March 2009 (UTC)