Talk:Marxist Socialism: Difference between revisions

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imported>João Prado Ribeiro Campos
imported>João Prado Ribeiro Campos
(An answer)
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|                  by = [[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|JPRC]] 11:30, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
|                  by = [[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|Guru2001]] 12:25, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
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{{Civil}} Please keep talking about CONTENT not presentation, views pro and contra visions can and must be part of any mature discussion. Abject rejection without proper alternatives are not academic in nature. Please try to construct a positive discussion. [[User:Robert Tito|Robert Tito]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;<span style="background:black">&nbsp;<font color="red"><b>[[User talk:Robert Tito|Talk]]</b></font>&nbsp;</span> 00:03, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
{{Civil}} Please keep talking about CONTENT not presentation, views pro and contra visions can and must be part of any mature discussion. Abject rejection without proper alternatives are not academic in nature. Please try to construct a positive discussion. [[User:Robert Tito|Robert Tito]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;<span style="background:black">&nbsp;<font color="red"><b>[[User talk:Robert Tito|Talk]]</b></font>&nbsp;</span> 00:03, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
::Just to clarify, one of our grounds for removal is this: "Disrespectful characterization of others' work on talk pages or other open forums. Note, mere criticism of a position or a forceful reply does not necessarily qualify as disrespectful; objectionable language has an implication of personal criticism, or can be reasonably taken to have such an implication."  See [[CZ:Constabulary Blocking Procedures|Constabulary Blocking Procedures]].  So, while of course it's highly desirable for us to have intelligent criticisms of others' work, criticisms should be made civilly, or professionally.  This does not need further discussion here; please just note the policy. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 12:46, 28 March 2007 (CDT)


:I did not intend to criticize the author of this article, but I see this article as having problems with presentation so severe as to make it difficult, if not impossible, to meaningfully discuss the content. The "introduction of this article does not, in my opinion, provide an educated reader a coherent foundation to learn more about the subject of this article. I will attempt to restate my objections to the article as it is evolving in a more constructive way.
:I did not intend to criticize the author of this article, but I see this article as having problems with presentation so severe as to make it difficult, if not impossible, to meaningfully discuss the content. The "introduction of this article does not, in my opinion, provide an educated reader a coherent foundation to learn more about the subject of this article. I will attempt to restate my objections to the article as it is evolving in a more constructive way.
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===A reply...===
===A reply...===


::As I said before, this article is '''UNDER CONSTRUCTION'''. The part you seemed to disagree most with is an "Introduction" which is meaningless without the remaider of the article. It refers to the previous heterodox thinkers who are analysed, in detail, each one separately, in [[Economic heterodox tradition]], linked to this article.  There is no point in repeating the same explanations here. I will prefer to discuss appropriateness of the title and specific topics after the article is complete. However, Marxist socialism is a type of socialism, the first type, as opossed to, for instance, "fabian socialism" (revisionist).
::As I said before, this article is '''UNDER CONSTRUCTION'''. The part you seemed to disagree most with most is an "Introduction" which is meaninless without the remaider of the article. It refers to the previous heterodox thinkers who are analysed, in detail, each one separately, in [[Heterodox I will prefer to discuss appropriatness of the title and specific topics after the article is complete. However, Marxist socialism is a type of socialism, the first type, as opossed to, for instance, "fabian socialism" (revisionist).
 
:(From the text):
 
:::(...)'''''"marxist socialism"''''', or ''"socialism"'' as conceived by Marx himself, also called ''"mechanical socialism"''. ''"Marxist socialism"'' supposes a class war, resting on the clear-cut distinction devised by Marx, and conceives a logically developed system of the control of the economy by government.
 
:Also view:
 
::* [http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1911hobhouse.html HOBHOUSE, L. T ''Liberalism'' (1911), excerts. Internet Modern History Sorcebook]


::Folowing this answer there is a schematic guide on the history of the period in consideration, which might be useful to those interested in understandig the events. It is from the ''Modern History Sourcebook'' edited in association with Fordham University, the Fordham University History Department, and the  Fordham Center for Medieval Studies. Its link will be placed in "External Links" to be avaliable to all.  
::Folowing this answer there is a schematic guide on the history of the perio, which might be useful to those interested in understandig the events. It is from the ''Modern History Sourcebook'' edited in association with Fordham University, the Fordham University History Department, and the  Fordham Center for Medieval Studies in providing web space and server support for the project.Its link will be placed in "External Links" to be avaliable to all.  


::I which to stress here, once more, the point that this article is neither intended to be "pro-Marx" nor "anti-Marx". Being "pro" or "con" is a subject for a political debate forum; there are thousands of them on the Net, freely avaliable to those rightfuly interested in defending their own personal political views. But the '''CZ project''' is not one of them. As for your comments on  ''"educated readers"'', I assume all readers to be educated, some more, some less.
::I which to stress here, once more, the point that this article is neither intended to be "pro-Marx" nor "anti-Marx". Being "pro" or "co" is the subject of for a political debate forum; there are thousands of them on the Net, freely avaliable to those rightfuly interested in defending their own personal political views. But the '''CZ project''' is not one of them.


[http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/SOCIALISM.html MODERN HISTORY SOURCEBOOK CRIB SHEET]
[http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/SOCIALISM.html MODERN HISTORY SOURCEBOOK CRIB SHEET]

Revision as of 13:54, 28 March 2007


Article Checklist for "Marxist Socialism"
Workgroup category or categories Economics Workgroup, Politics Workgroup, Sociology Workgroup [Categories OK]
Article status Developing article: beyond a stub, but incomplete
Underlinked article? No
Basic cleanup done? Yes
Checklist last edited by Guru2001 12:25, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

To learn how to fill out this checklist, please see CZ:The Article Checklist.





Text here was removed by the Constabulary on grounds of civility. (The author may replace this template with an edited version of the original remarks.) Please keep talking about CONTENT not presentation, views pro and contra visions can and must be part of any mature discussion. Abject rejection without proper alternatives are not academic in nature. Please try to construct a positive discussion. Robert Tito |  Talk  00:03, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

I did not intend to criticize the author of this article, but I see this article as having problems with presentation so severe as to make it difficult, if not impossible, to meaningfully discuss the content. The "introduction of this article does not, in my opinion, provide an educated reader a coherent foundation to learn more about the subject of this article. I will attempt to restate my objections to the article as it is evolving in a more constructive way.
First, this article is poorly titled. The article is about a particular strain of thought in the economic analysis of capitalism (as is emphasised early in the article), but the title implies a theory of the function of a socialist society, or an analysis of the implementation of socialism. A better title might be "Marxian economic analysis".
Second, the second paragraph fails to clearly explain what status quo is being described - the status quo of existing political-economic systems, or the status quo of economic theory. It then links various "heterodox" economists to various disturbances and revolutionary movements without any explanation or context - it is not explained that the purpose of heterodox economists is to overthrow existing social arrangements, it is merely assumed. (This assumption is also factually incorrect.)
Third, once the article introduces Marx's Capital, rather than attempting to summarize how Capital contributed to economic thought, it immediately moves on to the improvements and extensions of Marx's theory, and starts describing the endlessly tedious factionalism of marxist scholars.
Suggested improvements:
  • Rename article Marxian Economic Theory
  • Throughout the article, maintain a clear distinction between analytic economic theory and proposals for change of existing social-economic arrangements
  • After the initial introductory paragraph, explain briefly the state (or history) of economic theory prior to Marx's publication of Capital.
  • In the paragraph which announces the publication of Capital, explain (as it does now) the publication history (Engels completing it, etc), then briefly summarize how it changes the state of economic theory. If the publication of Capital (rather than other works of Marx) is considered important to the history of movements for restructuring the economic order, then explain that briefly, too.
These suggestions are just that; the article author (as there is still just one) may choose to organize the beginning of the article in some other way. I do not have sufficient background in Marxian economics to undertake this work myself.
The work which has been added since my initial complaint appears to be proceeding in a much more organized fashion; if the beginning of this article can be cleaned up, the overall article should be quite an addition to Citizendium. Anthony Argyriou 01:19, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

A reply...

As I said before, this article is UNDER CONSTRUCTION. The part you seemed to disagree most with most is an "Introduction" which is meaninless without the remaider of the article. It refers to the previous heterodox thinkers who are analysed, in detail, each one separately, in [[Heterodox I will prefer to discuss appropriatness of the title and specific topics after the article is complete. However, Marxist socialism is a type of socialism, the first type, as opossed to, for instance, "fabian socialism" (revisionist).
Folowing this answer there is a schematic guide on the history of the perio, which might be useful to those interested in understandig the events. It is from the Modern History Sourcebook edited in association with Fordham University, the Fordham University History Department, and the Fordham Center for Medieval Studies in providing web space and server support for the project.Its link will be placed in "External Links" to be avaliable to all.
I which to stress here, once more, the point that this article is neither intended to be "pro-Marx" nor "anti-Marx". Being "pro" or "co" is the subject of for a political debate forum; there are thousands of them on the Net, freely avaliable to those rightfuly interested in defending their own personal political views. But the CZ project is not one of them.

MODERN HISTORY SOURCEBOOK CRIB SHEET

Socialism, Marxism, and Trade Unionism

Origins of Socialism

  • French Revolution - theory and organization necessary for change
  • Industrial Revolution:
-the oppression of the working class
-a new possibility - that poverty might be abolished
-Creation of class consciousness
  • Judeo-Christian ideas of Justice

Utopian Socialists

  • Count Claude Henry de Saint-Simon (1760-1825)
  • Charles Fourier (1772-1837) - phalansteres (cf. Kibbutzim in Israel]
  • Louis Blanc (1811-1882)
  • Pierre Joseph Proudhon

Early English Socialism

  • Robert Owen (1771-1858) - New Lanark
  • Chartism
  • The Grand National Consolidated Trade Union

Socialist Philosophy - Marx and Others

  • Karl Marx(1818-1883)
  • Fredrich Engels(1820-1895)
  • The Communist Manifesto 1848
  • Das Kapital 1867

Origins of Marxism

  • German Philosophy - [Hegel] - for analysis of historical process
  • English Economics [Smith, Riccardo] - for importance and mechanics of economic
  • French Politics - [repeated revolutions - for means of social change

Dialectical Materialism

Thesis - Antithesis

|

Synthesis - Antithesis

|
New Synthesis

In sum - History has meaning

Marx's Application to European History

Feudalism - creates bourgeoisie

|
Capitalism

Capitalism - creates proletariat

|
Will create Socialism

In sum - a "scientific" approach to history

Alternatives to Marx

Philosophies:

  • Edward Bernstein (1850-1932) - Revisionism
  • Fabianism 1884
George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)
Sidney (1859-1947) and Beatrice Webb.(1866-1946).

Trade Unions:

  • Craft Unions
  • General Unions

Socialist Parties

  • Needed universal or mass male suffrage: Arrives in late 19th century
Britain 1867, 1884 (not quite universal)
Germany 1871
France, 1871
Switzerland 1879
Spain 1890
Belgium 1893
Netherlands 1896
Norway 1898
Italy 1912
  • German Social Democrat Party [SPD]
founded 1875 by Ferdinand Lasselle.
  • Labour Party in Britain
Keir Hardie first socialist MP - 1892
Independent Labour Party - 1901
Taft Vale Decision - Unions can be sued for damages
Trades Union Congress launches Labour Representation Committee
Labour Party 1906.

JPRC 08:54, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

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