Talk:Infanticide

	NOTICE, please do not remove from top of page.
	I no longer edit in Wikipedia. I am starting this article with the many sections, sentences and a hundred references that I added last year in the Wikipedia “Infanticide” article. I omitted the sections and references of the other Wikipedia authors.
	Cesar Tort 11:14, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

How can I edit the lead?

Just noticed that the sentence--:

Infant abandonment occurs in modern societies.[1] Abandonments put infants at risk of becoming the indirect victims of infanticide. Abandoned infants are essentially orphans and many receive care through orphanages or adoption.

--belongs to a section way below the article. But I don't know how to edit it from the lead in CZ (to relocate it properly). Cesar Tort 15:51, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I'll be happy to move this, but I'm not sure where to put it. Given the [1] in it, is it a note?

In the meantime, I'm going to create metadata for you, with some tentative workgroup assignments (Sociology, Law, Health Sciences) that certainly can change. Also, I'll look over the article for purely CZ formatting/text conventions.

By clicking the tabs on the top of the pages, you'll see Related Articles (where I moved "see also") and External Links. Related Articles is just a start, but we find it extremely useful, and something quite different from WP.

I assumed American English, but, since you refer to UK law, did you want the language variant to be British English?

In passing, one thing that annoyed me no end until I found that CZ and WP are different on footnotes. (I'm going to use a convention here to let me display some formatting commands on the talk page)

In WP, you can put in a footnote <ref name=Gomez /> before the full citation with <ref name=Gomez>{{citation | author = M. Gomez}}</ref>. In CZ, the full inline citation must exist before you have any short references to it.

Howard C. Berkowitz 22:01, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Got it. I think the above sentence should be relocated just below the heading "Present day". --Cesar Tort 12:10, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

First, just mechanically and you may know this: for moving text from any section or the, click on the edit for the whole page, which is at the top right, rather than on a section edit.

Moving it now. I was going to extend the bibliographic citation of http://http://meero.worldvision.org/issue_details.php?issueID=10, but the link is dead; it goes to a domain seller. Howard C. Berkowitz 12:13, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

You can remove both if you like: unsourced statement and dead source. That sentence/source was added in Wikipedia on 11 November 2008: exactly the day I gave up editing there. I shouldn't have added it to this article since I try to add here only the sentences I contributed to the Wikipedia article (as suggested by CZ policies if Ihave understood them correctly). --Cesar Tort 12:25, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

We are more flexible about sourcing here than Wikipedia. If a statement is well accepted by mainstream authority in the field, it doesn't need sourcing; that's a judgment call. More controversial matters do need sourcing, but — this is a style that CZ people develop over time — a degree of original synthesis is fine although original research is not.

Just as a suggestion, I think your statement about current infanticide is quite reasonable. Offhand, I can think of 2-3 abandonments, one on New Zealand Air (e.g., [1] the last week or so. In the U.S., there are more and more local laws and facilities for safely and anonymously depositing a baby who might otherwise be abandoned; there has been recent news reporting about pleas that these cannot handle older children, often directed to parents caught in economic crisis. Howard C. Berkowitz 12:42, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

P.S. My original post in this thread made no sense unless I explain that by then I could not edit the lead. It looks now that I was trying to click on the clickable editing letters with my screen showing big letters. I had to make letters look smaller so that they turn really clickable (I like to watch the screen from a distance and this is why I enlarge the text). Anyway, problem is solved now. Cesar Tort 22:00, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

New heading to link to Talk: Satanic ritual abuse

Added new heading so it could be linked to Satanic ritual abuse; perhaps some of this text should be copied there or at least linked. I'll leave it to Constables whether to move, as that affects the revision history. Reset indentation to fit new heading. Howard C. Berkowitz 17:30, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Just as a suggestion, I think your statement about current infanticide is quite reasonable. Offhand, I can think of 2-3 abandonments, one on New Zealand Air (e.g., [2] the last week or so. In the U.S., there are more and more local laws and facilities for safely and anonymously depositing a baby who might otherwise be abandoned; there has been recent news reporting about pleas that these cannot handle older children, often directed to parents caught in economic crisis. Howard C. Berkowitz 12:42, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, there's a "Child abandonment" article in Wikipedia. It's distinct from exposure and infanticide, both of which generally kill the infant. If you relocate the above sentence to a more suitable place I guess it should be removed from the lead? --Cesar Tort 12:51, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I see your point. Just thinking...is there a good generic term that could serve as a top-level for all of these? It's culturally challenging, if a particular culture doesn't regard even extreme abandonment as infanticide, merely the will of the heavens if the child does not live. Of course, this begins to touch on all the abortion, euthanasia, and things that get really touchy. You might want to look at futile care, which touches on these. Howard C. Berkowitz 12:57, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

The article is basically made of sentences based upon sources. My view about the subject is that child sacrifice, which sometimes goes with the canibalization of the infant (as was done by Indians in my town before the arrival of the Spanish conquerors) was the most barbaric. Greek and Roman exposure in the ancient world was less barbaric. Then we have abortion in our times. Euthanasia is quite different and I support it. --Cesar Tort 13:39, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, we certainly don't want to get into trying to find the Right Answer about abortion; eventually some of that really is faith-based (not meant nastily). As an aside, though, it's interesting to try to understand the rationale for human sacrifice in various belief systems. This is one of my problems with alleging it as a widespread Satanic practice; a good deal of known sacrifice, including ritual cannibalism of warriors or sacrificing kings to the land, dealt with transfer of power from people who had it.

You are, however, touching on a CZ-WP difference. While we try to be careful about attributions not generally accepted by experts, with feedback from our own, not having to have a source for every sentence — using other methods for accuracy — often makes for much more flowing writing. As you well know, a person with an agenda can source everything, but with biased sources. Howard C. Berkowitz 14:20, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Constable's move of some material

I removed some material that was originally here to a more apt discussion area at http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Talk:Satanic_ritual_abuse. If any of this moved material duplicates anything that already exists there, it can be edited by anyone who wants to, as long as it is *exactly* duplicated material, word by word.... Hayford Peirce 16:38, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the moving. This is the specific thread. Cesar Tort 19:08, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Next step

Hi Cesar, I think you have done a wonderful job on this article. It is chock full of information. I think your next step is to add some prose (or consolidate what you have into some prose) to make it a little more enjoyable to read and you will have an approvable article here. See this and this as part of the article mechanics page. It is by no means a policy, but just suggestion. D. Matt Innis 17:46, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Great. I certainly prefer narrative than bare bones! Cesar Tort 19:25, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I tried to recognize the sentiment by upgrading status to 1 (Developed). Howard C. Berkowitz 00:51, 17 April 2009 (UTC)