Talk:Welcome to Citizendium/Archive 1: Difference between revisions

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Should we add some extra entry point articles to the main page?  Please add your ideas below. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 15:47, 13 March 2007 (CDT)
Probably we should stick to lists, overviews, and summary-type topics.  Otherwise we end up making decisions about what individual topics within a field are most important--when the decision is almost always going to be completely arbitrary.  That rules out the following suggestions (all of which are, obviously, extremely important topics for articles):
: '''Topics that are (though important) not broad enough to include:''' [[Evolution]] - [[Tectonics]] - [[Magnetic North]] - [[e]] and [[i]] and [[pi]] - [[Isaac Newton]] [[Albert Einstein]] - [[Adam Smith]] and [[Karl Marx]] - [[Montessori Teaching]] - [[Psychoanalysis]] - [[Football]] (soccer) and [[American Football]] :) - [[Natural Law]]
--[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 20:43, 13 March 2007 (CDT)
[http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,849.0.html I've proposed that we start writing "catalogs"]--please have a look. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 13:34, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
----
:'''Natural Science'''
:[[Astronomy]] - [[the planets]] or [[list of planets]] or [[catalog of planets]]; also, [[catalog of Messier objects]]
:[[Biology]] - [[catalog of most abundant species]] ''or'' [[catalog of common zoo animals]]
:[[Chemistry]] - [[the elements]] or [[catalog of elements]]
:[[Computer]]s - [[most common programming languages]] or [[catalog of programming languages]]; [[catalog of programming algorithms]]
:[[Earth Sciences]] - [[catalog of landforms]]
:[[Engineering]] - [[famous engineering projects]] or [[catalog of engineering feats]]
:[[Health Sciences]] - [[catalog of body parts]] - [[catalog of common drugs]] - [[human body]] - [[how drugs work]] - [[human physiology]]
:[[Mathematics]] - [[catalog of important mathematical facts]] (definitions, theorems, constants, etc.)
:[[Physics]] - [[catalog of important physical laws]] - [[Light]] - [[Sound]]
:'''Social Sciences'''
:[[Anthropology]] - [[catalog of ethnic groups]]
:[[Archaeology]] - [[catalog of famous archeological sites]]
:[[Economics]] - [[catalog of famous economists]] ''or'' maybe [[roster of famous economists]]
:[[Education]] - [[catalog of famous universities]] - [[catalog of education theories]]
:[[Geography]] - [[countries of the world]] (or?) [[World Gazetteer]]
:[[Law]] - [[catalog of legal subjects]] - [[catalog of U.S. Supreme Court decisions]] - [[catalog of legal scholars]] ''or'' maybe [[roster of famous legal scholars]]
:[[Linguistics]] - [[major world languages]] ''or'' [[catalog of major world languages]] - [[language]] - [[language acquisition]]
:[[Politics]] - [[political ideologies]] or [[list of political ideologies]] or [[catalog of political ideologies]]
:[[Psychology]] - [[catalog of famous psychologists]] ''or'' [[roster of famous psychologists]] - [[catalog of psychotherapies]]
:[[Sociology]] - [[catalog of social institutions]]
:'''Humanities'''
:[[Classics]] - [[catalog of important classical writers]] - [[ancient Rome]] - [[ancient Greece]]
:[[History]] - [[catalog of civilizations]] - [[outline of world history]] ''or'' [[timeline of world history]]
:[[Literature]] - [[catalog of famous novels]] - [[catalog of famous English language authors]] - [[catalog of famous authors]]
:[[Philosophy]] - [[catalog of famous philosophers]] - [[outline of the history of philosophy]]
:[[Religion]] - [[catalog of religions]]
:'''Arts'''
:[[Architecture]] - [[catalog of famous buildings]] - [[catalog of famous architects]]
:[[Music]] - [[catalog of musical genres]] (or whatever) - [[history of Western classical music]] - [[timeline of Western classical music]] - [[catalog of musical instruments]] - [[catalog of famous popular music performers]]
:[[Theater]] - [[catalog of famous playwrights]]
:[[Visual Arts]] - [[catalog of famous painters]] - [[catalog of famous sculptors]]
:'''Applied Arts'''
:[[Agriculture]] - [[catalog of crops]]
:[[Business]] - [[catalog of major world corporations]]
:[[Healing Arts]] - [[alternative or complementary medicine]] - [[catalog of complementary medicine]] - [[catalog of common herbal supplements]]
:[[Journalism]] - [[catalog of major world newspapers]]
:[[Library and Information Science]]
:[[Media]] - [[catalog of famous actors]]
:[[Military]] - [[catalog of modern weaponry]]
:'''Recreation'''
:[[Games]] - [[catalog of popular games]]
:[[Hobbies]] - [[catalog of popular hobbies]]
:[[Sports]] - [[catalog of popular sports]]
----
How about quit trying here to find ''one or two'' additional specific lists per topic and instead add one additional generic entry per topic (maybe even as an icon) which leads to a "Most commonly looked up in XXXXX" page. This might be generated automatically from search results (using the Workgroup association as criterium where to list it), but I'm not sure if we really want that (who knows what comes out of that). Alternatively we could create that article based on our opinion what non-experts in the topic would most probably want to (or should) look at. So for Physics (where I'm non-expert) I could imagine links to [[Speed of Light]], [[Fusion]], [[Einstein]], [[Entropy]], ... on such a page. Would make the proposal process here less of a problem. --[[User:Markus Baumeister|Markus Baumeister]] 13:58, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
One problem with the suggestion is that it is the sort of thing that CZ is set up to counteract!  The Internet is full of projects that automatically aggregate popular opinion.  What people are looking for in CZ is meaningful, human-created, reviewed information.  Speaking for myself, I'd be much more interested in seeing a link to an outline of the history of the world than "most-searched-for history topics." --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 14:10, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
Sorry to ask, but you did read past the forth line of my proposal (past the "I'm not sure if we really want that"), didn't you? --[[User:Markus Baumeister|Markus Baumeister]] 19:09, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
I admit that sometimes I do read some messages rather quickly, if I have time to answer them at all.  Anyway, even a human-constructed list of "top X articles" is of only limited interest and value: we actually recently ''deleted'' a whole set of such category pages (e.g., we removed all articles from [[:Category:Philosophy Workgroup (Top)]]).  Anyway, of more interest to most users and contributors is something relatively specific, not generic.  For both groups of people, "top philosophy articles" won't be as interesting as "outline of the history of philosophy" (for example). --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 19:46, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
Why not a list of most searched terms that did not find a hit in CZ? Then we could build content to satisfy those search terms. Seems like that would be a good way to generate content that people want. --[[User:Jim Schrempp|Jim Schrempp]]
== Workgroup icons ==
I didn't comment when they appeared (not at ''all'' like me!), but I love the icons and the new look to the Main Page. It's gorgeous altogether and really getting distinctive.However, I think the buttons could be played with- I admit it's idiosyncratic but every time I see NS I think it's my initials, and I will spare you my reflexive read of "AAS". What about just N for natural sciences and AA for Applied Arts & Sciences?, or can we have symbols that are not letters? Are there any universal symbols for these? [[User:Nancy Sculerati MD|Nancy Sculerati MD]] 12:07, 18 March 2007 (CDT)
:We can use anything at all.  The changes would be trivial since I have all of those files as layers in photoshop.
:Another aspect that struck me recently is the sciences blue (for boys) and the arts pink/red (for girls) subliminal message. I think it could be avoided by removing the red/pink for arts, especially since it is a terrible match with the green AAS from a colour blindness perspective. Although, with respect to colour blindness, I'm not sure if we need to consider this more as long as we have symbols or letters too.
:With regard to acronyms, is AA any better than AAS?  Or is it OK to imply all who participate in the applied arts are alcoholics? ;) [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 12:23, 18 March 2007 (CDT)
Well, nice little icons would be better than letters anyway.  NS => test tube.  SS => idealized person/human head.  H => book.  A => tiny but still recognizable reproduction of some famous piece of art.  AAS => bridge.  R => joystick; or generic ball. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 12:31, 18 March 2007 (CDT)
:[Edit Clash] By the way, I had originally considered pictorial rather than letters, but did not want to waste time if the buttons proved to be unpopular. The letters were just the easy option.  Obvious chioces might include a book for humanities, a flask for natural sciences (or cartoon atom), paint palette for arts, possibly a drafting compass for applied, a football of sports? You get the idea. What best represent these supercategories?  If you come up more ideas I can show you what they would look like in practice. [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 12:36, 18 March 2007 (CDT)
::Now I see Larry's ideas echo mine so I'll get a set of those buttons done so people can choose which look best. [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 12:36, 18 March 2007 (CDT)
:::Here is a start.  One potential button for rec is [[image:Recreation button.png|30px]] [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 17:34, 18 March 2007 (CDT)
It's a great button. The problem with recreation as a category is that includes everything from antique collecting to the dog and cat and tropical fish fancy to stamps & coins- as well as sports and games.I think this is good for now, but maybe someday it will be the sports button and we'll have something more abstract for rec. [[User:Nancy Sculerati MD|Nancy Sculerati MD]] 18:02, 18 March 2007 (CDT)
:Why not more abstract now, but what? I'll sleep on it. Any ideas welcome. [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 20:34, 18 March 2007 (CDT)
Tried a Roman viaduct for the applied arts but is a dead loss for the small buttons. [[image:Applied arts button.png|30px]].  back to the drawing board.  Something like cisco systems logo might work. [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 00:26, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
About all I can think of is the infinity symbol! Or an asterix, I don't know that either is better. I think the buttons are great. If you made them 20% larger would they still work? The viaduct might work then- or maybe a roman arch. I admire both your photoshop skills and artistic eye. [[User:Nancy Sculerati MD|Nancy Sculerati MD]] 05:04, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
Hi Chris,
Whatever you do, can you get the buttons done fairly soon?  In the interests of presenting a good face to the public for launch? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 20:34, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
:Sure do we have a date? [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 21:38, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
::I'd prefer not to answer that question for very mysterious reasons.  The sooner the better, please. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 23:53, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
I have been playing around with three different buttons. Can i get some feed back on the ones below? Thanks [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 14:36, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
:{|class="wikitable" width="35%" style="text-align: center;"
!style
|colspan=8|'''full size and button size'''
|-
|rowspan=2 align=center|'''more realistic'''
|A
|B
|C
|D
|-
|[[image:Natural science button.png|100px]]<br>[[image:Natural science button.png|25px]]
|[[image:Social science button.png|100px]]<br>[[image:Social science button.png|25px]]
|[[Image:Realistic humans.png|100px]] <br>[[Image:Realistic humans.png|25px]]
|[[image:Recreation button.png|100px]]<br> [[image:Recreation button.png|25px]]
|-
|rowspan=2 align=center|'''more abstact'''
|E
|F
|G
|H
|-
|[[Image:Simple flask.png|100px]]<br> [[Image:Simple flask.png|25px]]
|[[Image:Simple hand.png|100px]] <br>[[Image:Simple hand.png|25px]]
|[[Image:Abstract human.png|100px]] <br>[[Image:Abstract human.png|25px]]
|[[Image:Rec infinity.png|100px]]<br> [[Image:Rec infinity.png|25px]]
|}
Hi Chris, thanks so much for your work on these.  I like the NS, SS, and Rec icons now on the front page.  I don't recognize what the AAS icon means (I'm really an ignoramus about some things).  As to the new ones, what would be using the large icons for?  As to the ''smaller'' icons, I prefer A to E; F to B (simply because it's darker); G to C (I can't tell what C is supposed to be without the larger icon above it); and D to H (H has no definite associations, doesn't seem to suggest recreation particularly).  A book for humanities and a paintbrush for Arts would do it; a bridge for AAS, but I'm not so sure about that one. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 14:47, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
::The current AAS one on the main page is a dud.  it was meant to be a Roman viaduct.  Instead it looks like a blob.  I intend to redo it.
::As far as the size is concerned the big ones will never be used. In the table above, it was just to make it easier to see. FYI, the small and big versions above are the exact same file.  Thanks for the comments, will try and finish up the others soon. [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 14:52, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
While you're in designer mode, could I ask you to do something else?  Could you add the word "beta" in some fancy way to [[:Image:Logo400gr.jpg]] as well as [[:Image:Logo900gr.jpg]], and for use on [http://www.citizendium.org/] ?  That would be great! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 15:08, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
:Assuming you like the beta logo that is already on the main page here are two options. 
[[Image:800px-Logo900beta2.jpg|300px]]  [[Image:800px-Logo900beta.jpg|300px]]
:I can probably create anything you want so if these are not the sort of thing you had in mind, please suggest away. [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 15:49, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
These are really nice.  Good work.  My preferences are the same as Larry's except that it really bothers me aesthetically that the flask and the hand have such different orientations.  I'm probably alone in this, but I would like to see the flask on A mirrored vertically. [[User:Joe Quick|--Joe Quick]]  ([[User talk:Joe Quick|Talk]]) 15:53, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
:I can easily flip the flask.  here is a more fun beta version. [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 16:06, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
[[Image:800px-Logo900fun.jpg|300px]] [[Image:Logo400grbeta.png|300px]]
Wow, great!  Can you do the diagonally oriented "beta" but without the nails?  Let me see now...  I'm not sure I'll want to stick with the nails, but I don't like the "beta" being horizontal, potentially interfere's with a first-time user's being able to recognize that it's a key.  But let me try it out on the front page! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 16:34, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
:Got to run now.  I replaced the main page picture with your preference.  Any tweeks i can do later, if necessary.  [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 17:10, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
I admire your work, Chris. I agree with both Lary and Joe about specific preferences- except I think the different orienations of the hand and flask are better, because they give more information with a quick glance that identifies each uniquely. Do they have to be next to each other on the list? That's what makes the different orientation disturbing, those two are the most grossly alike-but flipped. The hand could be used for applied arts or humanities if you could think of switches. I don't think it's a natural symbol for the Social Sciences, maybe a crowd would be - or two adults facing each other. [[User:Nancy Sculerati MD|Nancy Sculerati MD]] 16:45, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
:I'll try the heads facing each other.  In general people look like blobs on the tiny buttons.  The hand is very distinct.  But i agree it could easily be AA or H. [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 17:10, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
::Or just a single head. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 21:14, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
::Nancy could definitely be right about the orientation, but as it stands, NS and SS are next to each other on the workgroups page. I like G for social sciences, so the hand would be free but a hand for applied arts or humanities strikes me as strange.  I like an open book for humanities.  Dunno about AA. [[User:Joe Quick|--Joe Quick]]  ([[User talk:Joe Quick|Talk]]) 01:16, 24 March 2007 (CDT)
I think the hand works fine for applied arts (except for library science, but even there we have writing, all by the hand of man, so to speak.). The hand does not suggest social science to me in any way, but human faces would, especially if more than one and interacting-two profiles talking, facing each other could do it, maybe - for social science. The ball is good for recreation, the flask is great for natural sciences, a paint brush for Arts and an open book for the humanities. Unless you can think of better, Chris. Nancy [[User:Nancy Sculerati MD|Nancy Sculerati MD]] 12:19, 24 March 2007 (CDT)
:OK, '''now live''' on notice board means a timline is not so relevant.  Will get up new buttons as soon as possible. [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 14:47, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
[[image:Natural science button.png|50px]]
[[image:Natural science button.png|20px]]
[[image:Social science button.png|50px]]
[[image:Social science button.png|20px]]
[[image:Recreation button.png|50px]]
[[image:Recreation button.png|20px]]
[[image:Humanities button.png|50px]]
[[image:Humanities button.png|20px]]
[[image:Arts button.png|50px]]
[[image:Arts button.png|20px]]
[[image:Applied arts button.png|50px]]
[[image:Applied arts button.png|20px]]
I hope these icons will do for now?  The bridge and art palette could be a lot better.  Still struggling to make shte heads looks anything other than blobs on the small button.  [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 03:27, 26 March 2007 (CDT)
What good work! If you make ''the heads'' on the small button black (or dark-high value,) rather than the space between, I think it might then be obviously two heads. It's coming across as a'' trophy'' because the space between is what's emphasized. One reason I like the hand better for Applied Arts is because of the popularity of the internet for health and healing arts topics by the public (I can give you references, in general this is said to be the biggest use of internet for people seeking general academic-type information)- the bridge is more strictly engineering. The hand works for each major subdiscipline listed under Applied Arts. No strong opinion on its orientation. Nancy [[User:Nancy Sculerati|Nancy Sculerati]] 09:54, 26 March 2007 (CDT)
A huge improvement--thanks so much, Chris. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 09:18, 26 March 2007 (CDT)
I still like G (from above) for SS.  In the smaller size, the human silhouettes are much clearer. [[User:Joe Quick|--Joe Quick]]  ([[User talk:Joe Quick|Talk]]) 12:18, 26 March 2007 (CDT)
:Hi Joe, I think you might be right.  If I made the silhouettes more black then G could be even better.  It is very hard to get a face to look like a face on the small button.  Everything to date looks like a blob. [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 12:30, 26 March 2007 (CDT)
::Hey Joe ''et al.'', check out these two options.  This is as good as I can do without resorting to exaggerating the features of the face in a cartoon like way. [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 12:58, 26 March 2007 (CDT)
:::[[image:Social science button.png|50px]], [[image:Social science button.png|20px]], [[Image:Abstract human.png|50px]], [[Image:Abstract human.png|20px]]
I like #2-the walking figures. But both are good. [[User:Nancy Sculerati|Nancy Sculerati]] 14:14, 26 March 2007 (CDT)
Yeah, I definitely prefer the walking figures, although the face is also much clearer now.  I also really like the new Arts button, BTW.  Great work on this project. [[User:Joe Quick|--Joe Quick]]  ([[User talk:Joe Quick|Talk]]) 23:51, 26 March 2007 (CDT)
Chris, I'd also like to chime in that you've done great work here--you've made the workgroups page and general workgroup functionality considerably more user-friendly! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 10:12, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
On the issue of button size...would it be possible to use small buttons but when you hover over them the become larger?  Just a thought.--[[User:Mike Hammel|Mike Hammel]] 10:13, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
:It's beyond my know how. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 12:16, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
== ''''''A place for geezers'''''' ==
I would like to see a section in each topic for the memories of the people involved in the initial phases or actual events.  This would not be construed as an addition to or modification of the facts... and should be understood as personal observations that may add richness to the dryness of historical fact.
Many personal remembrances (WW II survivors, holocaust survivors, Freedom Marchers, space pioneers, etc) will be lost forever if not recorded soon.  Ron
See [[CZ:Topic Informant Workgroup]]! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 10:24, 26 March 2007 (CDT)
Interesting, I just heard something on NPR (public radio) about somebody trying to encourage anyone who has a grandfather, grandmother, father, mother, etc.. to sit down with them and videotape them as they describe the major things in their lives.  It didn't matter if they were actually there or not, just what was their recollection of what happened and where they were when things like JFK was shot, Pearl Harbor, etc.. He was then asking them to send them to his website where he ws going to display them. It would be ike a living history lesson. Not sure how we would go about documenting some of this. --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 09:48, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
:Of course oral recollections or eye witness testimony are known to be the worst from the perspective of accuracy but there is an interesting "personal experience" perspective to be got from the exercise. [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 10:40, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
==Notice Board==
This has become a focal point for instruction, and we need a focal point. I have made the link to it more obvious on the Main Page. Any assistance in maintaining or increasing that emphasis is appreciated. If you disagree, and feel that the notice board should be de-emphasized, perhaps you have a better suggestion. Please make it here so that we can work together to give newcomers a way to hook into the Citizendium. [[User:Nancy Sculerati|Nancy Sculerati]] 09:49, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
It's a good idea, for now, anyway.  We'll probably have to tweak the page regularly. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 10:06, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
==Number of articles we are working on==
On the main page, it says that at the moment that we are working on over 1,240 articles, linking to [[:Category:CZ Live]]. However, CZ Live only has 397 articles in it. Could you tell me where the figure comes from? Which articles are in this count but not in CZ Live? Thanks, [[User:Oliver Smith|Oliver Smith]] 12:26, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
:click the "next 400" link [[User:Thomas E Kelly|-Tom Kelly]] [[User talk:Thomas E Kelly|(Talk)]] 13:00, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
::You're right. I thought that when it said "There are 397 articles in this category", that it meant in the whole category, not just on that page. Thanks for your help, [[User:Oliver Smith|Oliver Smith]] 03:55, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
== Developed articles ==
I'd also like add a link to [[:Category:Developed Articles]] around the same place where we link to "Approved Articles."  What do you all think? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 11:46, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
P.S. If we do this we should go through [[:Category:Developed Articles]] first and make sure those articles really ''are'' developed.  A number of them aren't. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 11:48, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
== cntrl+f5 equivalent on a mac ==
shouldn't we list what the equivalent would be on a mac to refresh? [[User:Thomas E Kelly|-Tom Kelly]] [[User talk:Thomas E Kelly|(Talk)]] 20:48, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
Go ahead, list it there, Tom.  ''You'' can edit this page ''right now!''  :-) --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 00:21, 22 April 2007 (CDT)
== spam ==
The page contains an important mail "constables at citizendium" written in "clear text". I know it is easy to use like this. But this exposes our important mail to spammers, doesn't it. And if too much spam gets in, in long term many important requests could be lost as hard to distinguish. I guess that this is not the problem yet, but once it becomes a problem -- and surely it will -- we would have to change the address. Well, we might consider taking some anti-spam measures before it is too late. What about a little jpg picture that contains the address(I could prepare it)? Or just a standard 'crypting' like constables -at- citizendium dot org? Any thoughts?  --[[User:Aleksander Stos|AlekStos]] 07:09, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
:So, a basic anti-spam installed. Feel free to revert or improve if you find important drawbacks. --[[User:Aleksander Stos|AlekStos]] 14:01, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
* Feel free to peek at http://mail.citizendium.org to see some stats on mail and generalize what gets through and what doesn't. [[User:Jason Potkanski|Jason Potkanski]] 14:14, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
*: Thanks. I see. Perhaps it is already far "too late". The good news is  I was wrong and despite of spam the mail works. Good job. --[[User:Aleksander Stos|AlekStos]] 01:19, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
== Links to policies? ==
I'd love to see a link to CZ policies -- in particular, editorial ones such as formatting of entries, form of titles, use of subsections, use of quoted material in article, etc. -- linked to the mainpage.  When questions come up in the course of editing or talking about an entry, it would be infinitely easier to simply refer the parties to the stated policy (which would always be available at the left), and easier for anyone in doubt to get a quick reminder of them, than at present, when many are subsections in the master policy, and at least two links away from the mainpage.  It would be great too, if possible, to have these policy docs individualized (that is one entry per policy issue) and set up to open as new windows, so that, when clicked, one would not lose one's main article window.  [[User:Russell Potter|Russell Potter]] 11:11, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
== Main page overhaul ==
Nancy, Russell, all--please feel free to overhaul the main page.  It's due for a change. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 18:32, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
== Internationalization of  tax-deduction wording ==
Under the welcome section of the main page, the first link is "for readers: About the Citizendium" and the page linked to [http://www.citizendium.org/about.html] has these words:  "The Citizendium is a project of the Tides Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization."  That looks to me like the logical equivalent of a dreaded acronym.  501(c)(3) of what?  Missing is both the name of the legislation (or whatever it is) and the name of the country in which that legislation applies (unless it's international?)
I can't find it at the moment, but I thought one of those introduction-to-Citizendium pages stated that "you" can now deduct donations from your income tax.  I suspect this is another place where specific country/countries need to be mentioned to make it universally correct.  Maybe that bit has already been fixed, wherever it is, or maybe I just can't find it. --[[User:Catherine Woodgold|Catherine Woodgold]] 19:14, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
:Hi Catherine- I just happened upon your notes here, and I thought I would let you know that the deductibility of donations is for US Residents.  You are right- it is rather vague to just say "you" can now deduct donations...
:The [CZ:Donate|Donate] link on the side bar as well as the "Feed the Servers" header has recently been updated to a page created with information on donating to the Citizendium and the deductibility for US residends has been noted in 2 places.  Also, the e-mail that goes out to donors states the following: "Don't forget-- as a project of the Tides Center, we are part of a 501(c)(3)non-profit and donations are tax-deductible for U.S. residents (if you are not a U.S. resident, please check with your local taxing authority to determine the tax treatment of your donation)."
:I just thought you would be interested to know this.  Thanks! - [[User:Kelly Patterson|Kelly Patterson]] 11:46, 10 May 2007 (CDT)
== Wording of Copyright From Wikipedia ==
Our current notice reads "Please note that additions to those articles in the Citizendium that are marked as from Wikipedia are considered to be released under the GNU Free Documentation License 1.2 (see Project:Copyrights for details). All new articles will be available under an open content license yet to be determined."
However, Wikipedia's content is licensed under "the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 '''or any later version''' published by the Free Software Foundation" (emphasis mine).
Should we change our notice to "under the GNU Free Documentation License 1.2 or later"? It seems this would make our content more forward-compatible. --[[User:Mike Johnson|Mike Johnson]] 13:49, 3 May 2007 (CDT)
== Link to "articles to approve" ==
I would like to have a link on the main page to [[:Category:Articles to Approve]].  I suggest where it says ''"Want to work on an article heading towards approval? Browse: Developed Articles"'', appending ''"or [[:Category:Articles to Approve|Articles to Approve]]"''.  --[[User:Catherine Woodgold|Catherine Woodgold]] 07:56, 5 May 2007 (CDT)
== Amazon link ==
Glad to see the linkup with amazon.com - but on my browser, at least (Safari on a PowerBook G4) this displays as code, not as the box it's meant to be. [[User:Russell Potter|Russell Potter]] 09:48, 5 May 2007 (CDT)
:actually, it's a glitch. Hold on. [[User:Nancy Sculerati|Nancy Sculerati]] 09:49, 5 May 2007 (CDT)
:Could someone please edit the bookstore page (the page you get to when you click on an ISBN number in an article) to say something like "When you buy anything from these sites after following a link from Citizendium, you are helping support Citizendium financially at no extra charge to you."  It think it's important to be up-front about this.  Also, some people after seeing this may get in the habit of regularly buying stuff through Citizendium-originated links.
:I wonder whether people have to have cookies enabled on their browsers (or something) for it to work.  If so, it's a good idea to say so.  --[[User:Catherine Woodgold|Catherine Woodgold]] 07:26, 10 May 2007 (CDT)
::Done. I wouldn't worry about the cookie issue. Both referral programs track sessions based on additional data in the link. Hover over the link on BookSources for more detail. [[User:Jason Potkanski|Jason Potkanski]] 08:17, 10 May 2007 (CDT)
== Moving the entry points ==
Should the Entry Points be moved to where the Welcome Section is now, and the Welcome Section, with the points below, be moved to where the Entry Points are?
== Proposal: Redesign main page ==
I made a brief template of possible changes we could make to the main page, just to make it look better. Can you guys take a look at this and let me know what you think?
:[http://adornofamily.com/CZ/index.html http://adornofamily.com/CZ/index.html]
Note: This is far from finished, but it's just to give you an idea of what I had in mind. [[User:Mike Mayors|Mike Mayors]] [[User talk:Mike Mayors|(Talk)]] 19:28, 12 June 2007 (CDT)
I appreciate the effort, but--sorry--I just don't see that it's that significant of an improvement.  I think we need to rethink the whole entry page--probably greatly simplify the main entry page, and then create a series of other entry pages linked directly from the main entry page.  More importantly, we need to make a newer and better skin for the wiki, something that someone was working on (see the forums)...not sure what happened with that...
Ori Redler had a promising design, as I recall. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 19:37, 21 June 2007 (CDT)
K then, no problem.  I look forward to seeing the new skin.  Once its done, you can add that to the list of "Why we're not Wikipedia" :) [[User:Mike Mayors|Mike Mayors]] [[User talk:Mike Mayors|(Talk)]] 00:02, 10 July 2007 (CDT)
:I'd like to see an actual new, unique skin. Some people have done some pretty marvelous things with Mediawiki, they are just not included at the skins page there. &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 01:26, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
== Problems ==
Some problems that I have with citizendium which are parcially caused by me is that when you copy something from wikipedia, and you don't fix the red links then people can get lost. I think that a new way of transfering from wikipedia is that you have to fix the red links. [[User:Jordan Goldberg|Jordan Goldberg]] 19:28, 21 June 2007 (CDT)
<nowiki>Insert non-formatted text here</nowiki>


== Page needs redesign and simplification ==
== Page needs redesign and simplification ==

Revision as of 11:23, 25 July 2007


Page needs redesign and simplification

All, if you are interested in the Main Page, will you please work together (or just submit a design of your own) on a brand new and highly simplified design? We will move many of the links that are now on the front page, and in the sidebar, to other (still easily accessible) pages.

I did like a design by Ori Redler from some months ago, but we never followed up on it. --Larry Sanger 22:55, 11 July 2007 (CDT)

Would it be this one? [1]. It still needs work, but is this what you had in mind? --Matt Innis (Talk) 23:13, 11 July 2007 (CDT)
Yes, that's the one. --Larry Sanger 08:25, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
I like that idea. Very simple, and a few more entries, but looks good. Jochen Wendebaum 01:19, 12 July 2007 (CDT)

I got an idea! Reading about where and how to put the Beta tag, without losing sense of a "key" why not a "keychain"? Thomas Mandel 23:38, 11 July 2007 (CDT)

Nice basic layout idea, cool idea for the keychain. :-)  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 01:23, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
Along the "key" theme, what about keyholes or locks, as in clicking one "unlocks" the information users seek. Too hokey? Aric S. Campling 07:56, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
This is something like what I was thinking (I have larger versions if wanted):Cz keyhole sm.png Aric S. Campling 16:00, 19 July 2007 (CDT)
Hokey, yes, but I like it! Anybody know how to do this stuff? --Matt Innis (Talk) 16:09, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
I just noticed this too. It's a great logo. Why don't we make it into the top-left icon? --Larry Sanger 08:18, 20 July 2007 (CDT)
I must admit to not knowing how to actually change that... happy to provide a nicer/bigger logo to fit in the same dimensions as the existing one if someone else knows how to actually get the logo into that space. Aric S. Campling 20:52, 20 July 2007 (CDT)
No problem getting it into the space! Try one version with "Credibility and Collegiality" or "Credible -- Collegial" (some variation). And "Citizendium" of course. --Larry Sanger 08:38, 21 July 2007 (CDT)
Also, how about trying simply "CZ" in the black part? Simple, might work. --Larry Sanger 03:19, 24 July 2007 (CDT)
I know it is doable. I also know I am the sort who just really likes very artistic web design, so long as the functions do not become non-obvious and/or complicated. I just don't think simplicity and plainess necessarily have to be one and the same. :-)  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 18:48, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
Are we still in beta given the planned 2.0 initiatives? Can't we be in like, 0.2?--Robert W King 23:17, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
We officially Do Not Care that beta = pre-1.0. --Larry Sanger 23:20, 12 July 2007 (CDT)

Oh, I think the keyring is nice!  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 00:47, 13 July 2007 (CDT)

Pat, thanks--looks better, but still not the radical simplification I was hoping for. But then, we can't really have such a simplification until we have at least partly redesigned the entry pages of, for example, the project (CZ:Project Home). --Larry Sanger 06:37, 18 July 2007 (CDT)

I just saw the redesign, and while I think it's an improvement, I have at least one suggestion for improvement: "Approved Articles" should be up very close to the top. These are our showpieces - the thing which sets us apart (in theory) from Wikipedia. Anthony Argyriou 12:11, 18 July 2007 (CDT)

Feel free to tinker with it. I was a little nervous messing with the front page. Anyone should feel free to radically modify as far as I'm concerned. I placed the information sort of in the order I personally wanted--I imagine if you poll 10 people, you'd get ten different sets of priorities there. Anyway, why don't some of yall try your hand? I feel I've already stirred this pot enough :-)

I've just spotted the fresh design and couldn't resist experimenting :-) But my question is: does the Notice Board is a "project entree"? For regular editors the page is either in the watchlist or two-clicks-away via CZ:Project Home on the left margin. For newcomers, the Notice Board is virtually of no meaning. Do you see any other group potentially interested in having the link on the main page? --Aleksander Stos 08:06, 20 July 2007 (CDT)

Meh, get rid of it. Really, you can edit it, please do. --Larry Sanger 08:19, 20 July 2007 (CDT)

somehow it's reversed.
I can't help but point out various bugs and display issues, so here's yet another one: (screenshot pending)--Robert W King 14:18, 20 July 2007 (CDT)
Robert, do you have problems with other sites too? It seems like you have many more layout problems than others, even those using PC's. It makes me wonder whether you're missing some software. Chris Day (talk) 14:21, 20 July 2007 (CDT)
Just seen your screenshot. That png is transparent (at least it is mean't to be. For some reason your system is substituting transparent with black? Chris Day (talk) 14:23, 20 July 2007 (CDT)
When I click on the fullsize logo, there's a gray background.--Robert W King 14:24, 20 July 2007 (CDT)
Nope. CZ is the only one, and I am sure I'll get the same results when I get home, but I will keep you updated just in case..--Robert W King 14:22, 20 July 2007 (CDT)
Nope, it's ok! Looks OK in the picture above too
Strange, especially since the "approved"green tick is semi transparent. I'd expect the same with that too. Chris Day (talk) 14:31, 20 July 2007 (CDT)
Chris- I'm at home now, and it shows up the same way. The subpages template also appears to be a 50% grey/green, and the normal logo has the same background. I still see the front-page logo with the black background; it might be the way IE renders odd transparencies.--Robert W King 17:37, 20 July 2007 (CDT)
Does no one else use IE? Chris Day (talk) 18:03, 20 July 2007 (CDT)

I use IE, and my monitor displays the logo as a black rectangle with blue "zendium" and "beta," the latter on a white odd-shaped background. -- k kay 00:55, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

Just noticed this discussion. So it still looks black to some people? It doesn't to me on IE. It must have something to do with the background of that table cell. I just removed the background color. Does that fix the problem? --Larry Sanger 02:12, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

Nope, still black even after I 'hard refresh' and/or clear my cache. I might should mention, however, that I'm using an antique computer running Win95 and IE5.5, but it was working okay before. -- k kay 01:40, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

Now? --Larry Sanger 01:47, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

I can see again! If the background is supposed to be a sort of tan, I've got it perfect, if not, at least I can see all the elements now (on the 'main page' -- the ones on this 'talk' page are still black, of course). Thanks. -- k kay 01:51, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

This is only a IE 6 and below issue with transparent PNGs. Appears fine on IE 7, Mozilla Firefox and SeaMonkey, Opera, and Safari for Windows, which is what I've tested it with.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 02:33, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

Also displays fine in Konqeurer on Kubuntu Linux.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 02:37, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

Grand, but there are probably more people using IE 6 than all the other browsers you listed combined, except maybe Firefox. --Larry Sanger 03:17, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

Forums link

Would someone please restore the Forums link at the left bar? It's very helpful and convenient (I use it several times daily, and suspect others may as well), and it's an important part of the project. Russell Potter

This was my first reaction too. There is the "Communicate" link, however, and the target contains all useful pages. So now I appreciate lighter toolbox. Notabene, by the same logic, we could suppress the "Notice Board" link from the toolbox. It is, anyway, linked by "Communicate" and its proper place is in the watchlist. --Aleksander Stos 15:27, 20 July 2007 (CDT)
I use the Forums link a great deal as well, and would like to see it back. Aleta Curry 18:17, 20 July 2007 (CDT)
I too would like to see it back. Hayford Peirce 14:02, 21 July 2007 (CDT)
The "Communicate" option is much too ambiguous. Communicate with whom? About what? Through what means? I greatly prefer the original set of options. Russell Potter 17:28, 21 July 2007 (CDT)

Missing links - food, cuisine

This page is sure a lot cleaner looking than when I first joined a couple of months ago -- a great improvement! I don't see any openings, however, that would lead the casual browsing newcomer to Food Sciences or Culinary Arts (a proposed workgroup) or Catalog of French cuisine or Catalog of cocktails or any of the food articles I've worked on. Surely food, as a vital part of our existence, ought to be referenced here in some easy-to-find way. Under Sports, for instance, there's a list of difference sports, some with existing links and even sub-links.... Hayford Peirce 16:26, 20 July 2007 (CDT)

Just an oversight? Aleta Curry 18:24, 20 July 2007 (CDT)
We three ought to work together to get a food article up to approval status. French fries seems a good candidate. I'll try to recruit an editor, if need be. And after thinking a while, I do think a Cuisine Workgroup or some such is needed; just does not fit tightly enough with Food Science--one produces (a science), the other prepares (an art), with little crossover.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 02:26, 24 July 2007 (CDT)
Okay, I'll have a look. (Although the idea that the first approved article in Food Science will be something so completely bad for one--sheesh!) Re: Cuisine Workgroup--I'm not fundamentally opposed, but I need to point out that as far as I know, cooking is one of the food sciences, so it's not so much an issue of crossover as subset. Don't care enough to argue, though. Aleta Curry 17:08, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

Borders

I like it better with borders, although it's a close call. Hayford Peirce 18:42, 20 July 2007 (CDT)

Checklist!

Guys! Did you delete the checklist? Aleta Curry 18:50, 20 July 2007 (CDT)

It's still there, just buried now. Bookmark it. It could also be added usefully to CZ:Project Home if it isn't there already. Template:Checklist --Larry Sanger 08:52, 21 July 2007 (CDT)

"just buried now." ??? Why not just make things easier? Aleta Curry 17:05, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

Because sometimes easier ain't actually easier. Simplify the entry pages and more people have warmer fuzzies about us. What we really need is a personally configurable sidebar...but for that, we need more active (or paid) coders. --Larry Sanger 04:01, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

An idea for "Recreation"

I don't know what we're calling the organizational sections that the workgroups fall into, but I'd like to address the one now called "Recreation".

Let's change this to "Avocations, Recreation and Related Professions". It will help us deal with hobbies that are paraprofessional and avocations that can be amateur or professional (gardening, sports, cooking are crossover occupations that spring to mind.)

Now we can keep the present workgroups and also add one for 'Service Organisations' (The Red Cross, The United Way, Rotary International and the like.) This will also solve the many issues that have been raised with regard to "hobbies" in the forums, and also, as someone pointed out elsewhere, that Service Orgs and charities aren't included anywhere at the moment. Aleta Curry 17:15, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

Hi Aleta, please move this to CZ:New Workgroup Requests where we're keeping track of this sort of thing. I'm afraid your insights will fall through the cracks otherwise. --Larry Sanger 23:52, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

Okay, thanks, I posted it over there. Aleta Curry 00:10, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

Article of the Week

I've just reworked slightly the page to make a place for the Article of the Week, I think it's a must ( see also this forum thread). Naturally, the featured article is to be changed on a weekly basis. Since the wikiprocedure proposed by Larry didn't generate many reactions so far, let's simply adopt the rule of time order of approvals (any other suggestions?). To make it easy to see, I'll insert here an ordered list of articles to be put on the front page. To make it easy, here is the list (on a second thought, we might still change the order, just by manual editing below) --Aleksander Stos 12:13, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

  1. Biology
  2. Barbara McClintock
  3. Chiropractic
  4. Metabolism
  5. Horizontal gene transfer
  6. Wheat
  7. Vertebral subluxation
  8. RNA interference
  9. Chemistry
  10. Life
  11. Dog
  12. Tux
  13. Infant colic
  14. Pittsburgh, History to 1800
  15. Pittsburgh, History since 1800
  16. Complex number
  17. Prime number
  18. Literature
  19. Telephone newspaper
  20. Contraception (medical methods)
  21. Bacteriophage
  22. Northwest Passage
  23. Crystal Palace
  24. Ancient Celtic music
  25. Frederick Twort
  26. Félix d'Hérelle
  27. John Franklin
  28. Terrorism
  29. DNA
  30. Shirley Chisholm
  31. Joan of Arc

This isn't a bad idea at all, Aleks, it's just that I think that if we were to vote, it could generate more community excitement. Let's see how my "would you vote" vote goes... --Larry Sanger 12:22, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

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