User talk:Russell D. Jones/Mengele

Obviously unofficial, but I am continuing to improve the non-stub war crimes at User: Howard C. Berkowitz/W and Mengele at User: Howard C. Berkowitz/M. Howard C. Berkowitz 04:44, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

There seems to be a lack of current information here.

Just to clarify, so there’s no misunderstanding or hard feeling, this issue is above editor input level.

This matter has gone to the ME and the Ombudsman, and is currently before the EC as Case http://locke.citizendium.org/cz_ec/DR-2010-001.

I believe that due to the time zone difference, the EC Secretary will have retired already, which is the reason I’m commenting.

I am sure the EC will contact Dr. Jones officially should his input be needed.

Aleta Curry 05:08, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Now, I didn't post a request, but are you saying that no one can comment or read the materials without EC approval, if it's simply a matter of interest? Although no rules have been written for the procedure, are you saying that the accused could not seek opinions? Howard C. Berkowitz 05:13, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I believe my words were clear. Aleta Curry 05:19, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I do not accept that anything is "above the editor input level", or for that matter above comment by non-editor citizens. It may be out of scope for an editor decision, as this appears to be, but not for input.

The Charter says "Whenever possible, disputes shall be settled informally at the lowest possible level by subject matter Editors." In my view, this dispute should obviously have gone there first. I do not at all regret trying to involve these editors, only that I did so rather late. They are, after all, the experts on the issues at hand. Sandy Harris 05:46, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

But one aspect of the dispute is which workgroups the articles should be in, and hence which editors might have authority. Only the EC could decide that authoritatively. Peter Jackson 10:11, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Given that the disputant took it to the ME immediately, and subsequently rejected the role of the Ombudsman, i have to say that I find Sandy's position quite incomprehensible. The matter has gone to the Editorial Council, and that is that. Any Citizen is, of course, perfectly entitled to consult any Editor in any workgroup for advice and opinion; however, it is a matter of common courtesy to inform that person that he or she is potentially getting involved in a formal dispute procedure of CZ. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 13:04, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Workgroup Editor Suggestion

Article 40: Whenever possible, disputes shall be settled informally at the lowest possible level by subject matter Editors.

Sandy Harris was correct to ask the Workgroup Editors to intervene in this dispute. If the workgroup's solution is not acceptable to the parties, they are free to use the other remedies outlined in Article 40. Russell D. Jones 14:52, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Well. not really, Russell. There are too many other factors involved. For the sake of resolving the specific matter of usage of the term "war criminal", I am prepared to engage in your debate -- which I do agree is an appropriate way to discuss such issues. Thank you for your help. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 15:11, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Was Mengele a War Criminal?

The authors of this article have discovered a fundamental dispute about this topic. Obviously, there is no "correct" answer to this question, although two principal authors of this article have found different ways to argue the proposition. This debate has intellectual merit and is worthy for a proper intellectual discussion. The two sides will not reach agreement about a definitive answer to this question.

I therefore propose that each side present cogent arguments (and counter arguments) in civil and professional ways on the Josef Mengele/Debate Guide page. This debate should be referenced in the main article along the lines "there has been some debate about whether or not Mengele was a war criminal (see debate guide for more)." But the main article does not need to elaborate or rehash the debate. Let the readers decide for themselves which argument is correct. I think most readers will find merit in both positions. After all, neither side is arguing that what Mengele did was not an affront to humanity. I think most readers will understand that. Russell D. Jones 14:52, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

For an example of how this works see Thomas Jefferson#President: Troubled second term, 1805-1809 and Thomas Jefferson/Debate Guide.

Use of the term

Question: Should the term "war criminal" be used in the main article to describe Mengele?

As per above, that neither side will be able to resolve concretely the question of whether or not Mengele was a war criminal, the article should recognize the controversial nature of this term and use it sparingly. There are some facts that must be included, however. The current text in the Josef Mengele#Postwar heading seems mostly objective. It states that there is some controversy among the War Crimes Tribunals and among the historians as to whether or not Mengele was officially identified as a suspected war criminal. I would like to see, however, this vagueness cleared up. Surely there are lists of people identified by the War Crimes Tribunal as suspected war criminals. Proper evidence will resolve this.