Template:CharterVote2/5/Discussion

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Agree with Daniel's initial comment. -Joe Quick 00:39, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
Agree. 4 and 5 could be switched. D. Matt Innis 00:44, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
Agree. Articles 4 and 5 be switched. Russell D. Jones 15:54, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

"Commentary?" Really? Jones 03:08, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Citizens shall act responsibly and in a civil manner: derogatory or offensive commentary comments will not be tolerated.

Agree. D. Matt Innis 03:28, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

"Language?" Jones 03:41, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Better, Agree. D. Matt Innis 11:35, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Language and behavior. This might be the place to deal with the issue raised by Larry in his email. I found a definition for "nuisance" in a legal dictionary (see also the second definition at dictionary.com) that might be helpful: people do not have the right to interfere with another person's enjoyment of personal property or public space. If we're careful, we can use that here.

• Citizens shall act responsibly and in a civil manner: derogatory or offensive language and behavior will not be tolerated. No Citizen shall have the right to interfere with another Citizen's rights as delineated by this Charter.

Oops, forgot to sign the above. -Joe Quick 14:12, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

You may be on to something here, Joe. Part of the legal remedy for a nuisance is injunction, an order to desist. I brought this up before, so now seems like a good time to do it again. See below: Russell D. Jones 15:58, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

• Citizens shall act responsibly and in a civil manner: derogatory or offensive language or behavior will not be tolerated. Citizens who interfere with another Citizen's rights as delineated by this Charter or who violate rules established by either the Managerial or Editorial Councils shall be subject to administrative action [prosecution?] upon complaint of the aggrieved citizen, the punishment of which may include, but is not limited to, suspension from the Citizendium for a period of time or permanent expulsion. Other administrative actions may be established by the Managerial Council.

• Citizens shall have the right to expect respect of their competency from other citizens regarding any of their contributions in the Main, Talk, User, or Image namespaces and in other namespaces as identified by the Management Council. This does not mean that Citizens are barred from collaborating in other namespaces, but it does mean that their contributions in these namespaces deserve the courtesy of respect.
  

• All citizens shall be equal and no special privileges shall be granted except those granted in this charter to editor and officers.
  

• Citizens shall be considered editors of their own user pages and all of its subpages.

• All citizens shall be treated fairly and respectfully by other citizens, editors, and officers of the Citizendium.
  

• In cases of dispute, citizens have the right to request the help of other citizens or editors.
  

• Citizens should expect officers and editors to be fair and impartial. And should expect biased officers and editors to recuse themselves in any dispute resolution process.
  

• Citizens should expect that dispute resolutions should be resolved on the basis of the evidence and not upon the character or point of view of the citizen.
  

• Citizens shall not have any decision rendered against them in a dispute resolution process for which they have not had opportunity to have their say.
  

This is looking good, but could you elaborate on what you have in mind by other namespaces? Are you thinking of policy pages, Cold Storage, and partner or relationships such as a separate Eduzendium space? (as an aside, if there were a separate Eduzendium space, there could be a specific pseudonym rule that applies to it, or other spaces where pseudonyms may be required. Howard C. Berkowitz 16:11, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not clear on why some namespaces are different than others when it comes to respect from other Citizens. Also, "the right to request the help of other citizens or editors," sounds like ganging up on an opponent in sanctioned; what about "the right to request the help of editors or the Ombudsman"? -Joe Quick 19:38, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

I like this list, Russell, great work. We finally have a Bill of Rights. I'll have to take some time to think them all through, but overall my impression is good.

Joe, I think I like "other citizens or editors" better. I don't think there is anything wrong with asking a friend to help convince someone else. They may know someone that is more knowledgable than they are on a particular problem - or maybe at communicating it. Our purpose should be to get to the best formulation of the problem - no matter who makes it - and then the editors can decide from the information presented to them by the collaborating author/s. I'm just thinking that we should not restrict it to cases of dispute. But, I am still listening.

Joe, the ideas behind "other citizens or editors" are (1) the right to counsel and (2) the right to have people speak in your defense. you're right, the language is garbeled. We don't have "counsel" at CZ, so it's kinda pointless to put in the right to counsel in the charter. But neither should you be expected or forced to defend yourself solely on your own. Russell D. Jones 00:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

• In cases of dispute, citizens have the right to request the help of other citizens or editors

D. Matt Innis 22:14, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

I like much of this list too but think it is too exhaustive for one article at the level of detail that we now have in the Charter. --Daniel Mietchen 23:05, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree to striking "in cases of dispute." Still confused about the namespace issue and even if that is too detailed. Howard C. Berkowitz 23:14, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

The idea behind identifying the namespaces was that it would identify certain areas where authors are presumed to be competent authorities. The CZ and Template namespaces are not listed as we don't want novices mucking around in the templates and so we should be able to discipline someone who does muck something up there, but on the other hand, they might actually know what they're doing so if they want to risk it, I'd let them. On the other hand, an author should feel secure that what he or she is doing in the Main Namespace is not going to be scrutinized or harrassed just for writing. Whereas if they were doing similar things in the Template space or the CZ (policy) spaces, their work should be scrutinized immediately. That was the idea.

It might be a distinction without a difference, but I was trying here really to define in real terms protections for authors. Russell D. Jones 00:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Should it be shortened? Russell D. Jones 00:41, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

• Citizens shall have the right to expect respect of their competency from other citizens regarding any of their contributions.

Agree to the shorter version. D. Matt Innis 01:13, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

This point:

• Citizens should expect officers and editors to be fair and impartial. And should expect biased officers and editors to recuse themselves from their official positions in any dispute resolution process.

My concern is that a biased editor/constable/ME should be able to make their case to a court just as the author can. But, they should not be allowed to officiate in the dispute resolution... is a workgroup discussion part of dispute resolution? - an editor would be officiating there (and we want them to). Other than that, I agree with all of the rest. D. Matt Innis 01:13, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

• Citizens shall have the right to expect respect of their competency from other citizens regarding any of their contributions.
• All citizens shall be equal and no special privileges shall be granted except those granted in this charter to editor and officers.
• Citizens shall be considered editors of their own user pages and all of its subpages.
• All citizens shall be treated fairly and respectfully by other citizens, editors, and officers of the Citizendium.
• In cases of dispute, citizens have the right to request the help of other citizens or editors.
• Citizens should expect officers and editors to be fair and impartial. And should expect biased officers and editors to recuse themselves from their official positions in any dispute resolution process.
• Citizens should expect that dispute resolutions should be resolved on the basis of the evidence and not upon the character, point of view, or politics of the citizen.
• Citizens shall not have any decision rendered against them in a dispute resolution process for which they have not had opportunity to have their say.
  

Agree. D. Matt Innis 01:13, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Agree. Added Or politics after Matt signed. Russell D. Jones 01:28, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Except this leaves out the whole reason we had the article in the first place which was that you break the rules, CZ has the right to clobber you. Russell D. Jones 01:32, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

• Citizens shall act responsibly and in a civil manner: derogatory or offensive language or behavior will not be tolerated. Citizens who interfere with another Citizen's rights as delineated by this Charter or who violate rules established by either the Managerial or Editorial Councils shall be subject to administrative action [prosecution?] upon complaint of the aggrieved citizen, the punishment of which may include, but is not limited to, suspension from the Citizendium for a period of time or permanent expulsion. Other administrative actions may be established by the Managerial Council.
• Citizens shall have the right to expect respect of their competency from other citizens regarding any of their contributions.
• All citizens shall be equal and no special privileges shall be granted except those granted in this charter to editor and officers.
• Citizens shall be considered editors of their own user pages and all of its subpages.
• All itizens shall be treated fairly and respectfully by other citizens, editors, and officers of the Citizendium.
• In cases of dispute, citizens have the right to request the help of other citizens or editors.
• Citizens should expect officers and editors to be fair and impartial. And should expect biased officers and editors to recuse themselves from their official positions in any dispute resolution process.
• Citizens should expect that dispute resolutions should be resolved on the basis of the evidence and not upon the character, point of view, or politics of the citizen.
• Citizens shall not have any decision rendered against them in a dispute resolution process for which they have not had opportunity to have their say.
  

Clerical error :) Agree.D. Matt Innis 01:40, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree, with the caveat "*Citizens shall be considered editors of their own user pages and all of its subpages, as long as content does not violate general rules on inflammatory or derogatory posting.

Agree. Joe Quick 04:07, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

One more time (I've altered Howard's suggested slightly but means the same thing I think)

• Citizens shall act responsibly and in a civil manner: derogatory or offensive language or behavior will not be tolerated. Citizens who interfere with another Citizen's rights as delineated by this Charter or who violate rules established by either the Managerial or Editorial Councils shall be subject to administrative action [prosecution?] upon complaint of the aggrieved citizen, the punishment of which may include, but is not limited to, suspension from the Citizendium for a period of time or permanent expulsion. Other administrative actions may be established by the Managerial Council.
• Citizens shall have the right to expect respect of their competency from other citizens regarding any of their contributions.
• All citizens shall be equal and no special privileges shall be granted except those granted in this charter to editors and officers.
• Citizens shall be considered editors of their own user pages and all of its subpages as long as content is not inflammatory or derogatory.
• All citizens shall be treated fairly and respectfully by other citizens, editors, and officers of the Citizendium.
• In cases of dispute, citizens have the right to request the help of other citizens or editors.
• Citizens should expect officers and editors to be fair and impartial. And should expect biased officers and editors to recuse themselves from their official positions in any dispute resolution process.
• Citizens should expect that dispute resolutions should be resolved on the basis of the evidence and not upon the character, point of view, or politics of the citizen.
• Citizens shall not have any decision rendered against them in a dispute resolution process for which they have not had opportunity to have their say.
  

Agree. D. Matt Innis 17:06, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

• Agree. Howard C. Berkowitz 17:13, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

(fixed a typo) I can agree to this whole list of statements, but think in the current design of the Charter, it is too much for a single article. There is also considerable overlap with other articles currently under discussion. --Daniel Mietchen 20:53, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. How should it be broken? And for redundancy, that's okay with me as long as it is consistent throughout. Russell D. Jones 21:07, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

One option to break them up would simply be to give each of these points its own article (provisionally labeled 5.1-5.9, to be relabeled when the final draft is being renumbered). Along with a few minor tweaks, this gives the following:

1. Citizens shall act responsibly and in a civil manner: derogatory or offensive language or behavior will not be tolerated. Citizens who interfere with another Citizen's rights as delineated by this Charter or who violate rules established by either the Management or Editorial Councils shall be subject to administrative action upon complaint of the aggrieved Citizen, the punishment of which may include, but is not limited to, suspension from the Citizendium for a period of time, or permanent expulsion. Other administrative actions may be established by the Management Council.
2. Citizens shall mutually respect their competency regarding any of their contributions.
3. All Citizens shall be equal and no special privileges shall be granted except those granted in this charter to Editors and Officers.
4. Citizens shall be considered Editors of their own user pages and subpages thereof, as long as content is not inflammatory or derogatory.
5. All Citizens shall be treated fairly and respectfully by other Citizens, Editors, and Officers of the Citizendium.
6. In cases of dispute, Citizens have the right to request the help of other Citizens or Editors.
7. Citizens should expect Officers and Editors to be fair and impartial. Biased Officers and Editors shall recuse themselves from their official positions in any dispute resolution process.
8. Dispute resolutions should be resolved on the basis of the evidence and not upon the character, point of view, or politics of the Citizen.
9. Citizens shall not have any decision rendered against them in a dispute resolution process for which they have not had opportunity to have their say.
   

If the proposal to split these up into separate articles finds support, we can set up the voting machinery for these new articles, and vote on each of them separately. --Daniel Mietchen 23:01, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't know that we'll need to vote on all of them individually as we all seem to have given assent through this thread. The only confusion I have is whether Joe's agreement was only for article 5.5 or for the whole thing with his changed 5.5. --Russell D. Jones 00:50, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree with article and with splitting into nine articles. Russell D. Jones 00:50, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Wow, really. If we're going to number them 5.1, 5.2 etc., why don't we just add a '5.' in front of all of them? Or is that what you're talking about? D. Matt Innis 01:05, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

It's just for the time being. Once we've okayed everything, Martin will do another re-numbering, and then .... viola! Jones 02:04, July 21, 2010

Fine with me if we can agree on them en group (I do). And yes, the numbering is provisional. By the way, I just turned "officer" to upper case here, so as to fit with "Editor" and "Citizen". I think we should do that for the whole document. --Daniel Mietchen 10:35, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

I'll Agree with whichever you guys want form here. If the text changes, I'll reconsider. D. Matt Innis 11:56, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Agree with the most recent wording. I'm okay with splitting it into separate articles or not, whatever you all feel most comfortable with. -Joe Quick 15:56, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

[changed two instances of "Managerial Council" to "Management Council" -Joe Quick 16:00, 23 July 2010 (UTC)]

OK, I'll green art. 5 and split it up into 5.1 to 5.9 then. --Daniel Mietchen 18:50, 23 July 2010 (UTC)