Talk:French words in English/Catalogs

Oh, this is fine. Did you work it out for yourself, Hayford? Ro Thorpe 15:50, 2 May 2008 (CDT)

I wuz channelling Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Albert Einstein the whole time. With a couple of hints from Isaac Newton. Made it easy, hehe.... Hayford Peirce 16:14, 2 May 2008 (CDT)

I'm most impressed by you all. Ro Thorpe 17:16, 2 May 2008 (CDT)

It is nothing. I can see farther because I stand on the shoulders of giants. Or some such. Hehe.... Hayford Peirce 17:30, 2 May 2008 (CDT)

amuse-moi

Neither of the "amuse" are in the MW but I see them all the time in the foodie articles of the NYT, Cook Illustrated, etc., so they're certain au courant.... Hayford Peirce 15:05, 7 May 2008 (CDT)

zest vs. zeste

I'm thinkin' here of the lemon/orange peel stuff, but evidently the "zest for life etc." originated with the peel word. But the spellings, at least in English, are confusing, to say the least.... Whaddaya think? Hayford Peirce 23:22, 7 May 2008 (CDT)

I confess I had never heard of 'zeste' & I suspect it's a specialist foodie word, being absent (except for the etymology) not only from my Oxford but also (wait for it..) from Merriam-Webster online! Ro Thorpe 10:59, 8 May 2008 (CDT)

Probably exclusively a foodie word, then. It won't make the cut, hehe.... ("Cela ne vaut pas un zeste" -- "It is not worth a straw" [Harrap's New Collegiate French and English Dictionary]) Hayford Peirce 11:20, 8 May 2008 (CDT)

don't get fresh with me, young man!

I'd say that it's probably just pure dumb 'Merkin luck. It *looks* sorta like "fresh", so why not say it that way? I gotta say, that 51 and a half years after taking my first French class, I still get confused about "frais", "fraiche", "frais de bois" and "lay frez eh lay from boize". Why is life (la vie francaise) so complique?

Well, I put the more purist français one in as well. My first French class was in 1961, I make that 47 years ago. We were taught by a northerner known as Bug. Toto ouvre la pot, he taught us to say, so for a few weeks I thought that doors were pots in French. Ro Thorpe 15:58, 10 May 2008 (CDT)

duvet, retroussee, par excellence... Ro Thorpe 11:14, 15 May 2008 (CDT), nougat, caramel... Ro Thorpe 16:06, 16 May 2008 (CDT) - oxford says rapporteur's from fr., but either way, i have no problem with it - Ro Thorpe 17:48, 16 May 2008 (CDT)

Okie, I'll stick it in, then.... Hayford Peirce 17:50, 16 May 2008 (CDT)

i see you've put the others in too, tres bien - Ro Thorpe 17:54, 16 May 2008 (CDT)

oxford says oenophile is direct from greek, no mention of french, but on the same page in italics is oeillade - Ro Thorpe 12:11, 17 May 2008 (CDT)

MW says "oenophile" is from F, which in turn was from G. It has "oeillade" but says it is from MF. Didn't Willie the Shake use it somewhere? I'll let you figger out what to do about the two words -- here in Tux'n it's only 10:16 in the morn, far too early for me to put my brain to work.... Hayford Peirce 12:17, 17 May 2008 (CDT)

you'd never find me up at such an arctic hour. yes, mw online has oe- joined together -nophile, which is emphatically le style français, so let them both passer partout. meanwhile i've asked conway to send his recently updated list in forwardable form - Ro Thorpe 13:34, 17 May 2008 (CDT)

Is that Conway Twitty? I thought he had died, poor guy.... Maybe from a surfeit of Loretta Lynn? Hayford Peirce 13:38, 17 May 2008 (CDT)

i imagined he was named after mr twitty, tho perhaps 'twas only make-believe -

well, I imagine that in any case he has excellent, tight-fitting genes.... Hayford Peirce 14:13, 17 May 2008 (CDT)

genes vincents, no doubt - Ro Thorpe 14:25, 17 May 2008 (CDT)

missing note

was the one on the french talk page - but you've seen that. thanks for yours. i've had a look at my contributions, + there's a little bit for every day. i've also been listening to the cricket + playing chess - i'm a very average player, but it means a lot of staring at the screen without moving... ah, i see i'm typing on the french page - i'll see if i can't alert you more successfully this time. Ro Thorpe 09:16, 20 May 2008 (CDT)

102 possible new words to consider

words in italics are to be considered but not yet entered
words in bold are clearly appropriate and have been entered
adieu attaché au revoir avenue avoirdupois badinage bagatelle baroque barque barrage beige beret bezique boudoir bourgeois boutique buffet bureau burlesque cadet cagoules ? carousel cerise chalet chassis cheque chic cigarette clique college [?] colporteur [check] conduit cravat [?] crèche cretin [?] crevasse crevice dame denouement depot eau de nil encore euchre faux ami faux pas figurine ? grille grotesque guillemot hotel ? image ? j’adoube latrine layette lieu macabre madeleine malice mangetout margarine ? marmalade marionette marquis massage mauve misère ouvert moquette mosaic ? moustache nuance panache papillon parapet parole patois pipette plateau police pouffe précis promenade puce queue reservoir restaurant roux sage salon sardine savant serviette silhouette solitaire suede suite tambourine torque unique urine ? velocipede ? vignette village ? Hayford Peirce 17:49, 21 May 2008 (CDT)

we certainly don't need all of those, but there are plenty of good ones - Ro Thorpe 18:02, 21 May 2008 (CDT)

I suggest we apply our standard test -- is it in either MW or Concise Oxford? The tricky ones are "hotel", "village" etc., the ones that probably *do* come from the French but are so commonly in English use that they're really not exotic-sounding.... Hayford Peirce 18:25, 21 May 2008 (CDT)

I added attache and au revoir. The 3 other A's, adieu, avenue, and avoirdupois are all either ME from AF or MF. So I didn't put them in -- this is a can of worms. Add them if you like.... (By the way, I put in BOLD the 5 words on the list that I considered so that we know where we are in working our way through the list.) Hayford Peirce 11:46, 22 May 2008 (CDT)

yes, that's fine. + thanks for email, reply to follow - Ro Thorpe 13:03, 22 May 2008 (CDT)

You mean, "Aux quais!" not the banal OK, hehe.... Hayford Peirce 13:21, 22 May 2008 (CDT)

forte

yes, mw online has a good discussion, but i don't recall hearing any other than the italian pron. ah, yes, ox. gives the silent e pron as american - Ro Thorpe 08:22, 23 May 2008 (CDT)

It's not a word that my low-class circle of friends use very frequently, hehe. I think, on the rare occasions that I have heard it, it's been either way, "fort" or "for-tay", probably "fort" being more frequent. Hayford Peirce 10:35, 23 May 2008 (CDT)

ok. it's also the name of a coffee house chain in britain, i think. pointillisme occurred to me but ox. has it anglicised, sans e. Ro Thorpe 11:16, 23 May 2008 (CDT)

middle French

I think I'm gonna have to change my mind on the exclusion of Middle French words that came over. For instance, "avoirdupoid" is clearly, obviously, 100% French in origin (if one knows any French), so it seems foolish to exclude it simply because it came into English a couple of hundred years before Modern French existed. I've just been checking out MW and "bourgeois" is also MF. It would be nuts to exclude "bourgeois" but to include "bourgeoisie" because the former is MF and the latter is F. What do you think? Hayford Peirce 11:33, 23 May 2008 (CDT)

'a strange or little-known pronunciation' i wrote in the intro, +, yes, i'm quite happy to be inclusive. i can imagine my 11-year-old self protesting 'but isn't ~n'importe quoi bien connu~ a french word~ ... Ro Thorpe 12:06, 23 May 2008 (CDT)

Okie, I'll try to put back in all the MF words that I've excluded up to now. Your son is getting a good education, learning all the important stuff. One of my daughters in Tahiti is always sending me junk videos that she and her faineante friends spend their time at work finding on the Internet. Most times I just reply: "N'importe quoi!" Hayford Peirce 12:41, 23 May 2008 (CDT)

that's fine. what about card games, like bezique, piquet~ Ro Thorpe 10:56, 24 May 2008 (CDT)

If they're in MW or your COD, and identified as French, den dey is in like Flynn. Some French words, almost on the same subject, for instance, come from names, such as silhouette.... Hayford Peirce 11:11, 24 May 2008 (CDT)