User talk:Peter Schmitt/Archive 1

 Where Peter lives it is approximately: 19:11

Welcome!

Welcome, new editor! We're very glad you've joined us. Here are pointers for a quick start. Also, when you get a chance, please read The Editor Role. You can look at Getting Started for other helpful introductory pages. It is essential for you as an editor to join the Citizendium-Editors (broadcast) mailing list in order to stay abreast of editor-related issues, as well as the mailing list(s) that concern your particular interests. It is also important, for project-wide matters, to join the Citizendium-L (broadcast) mailing list. You can test out editing in the sandbox if you'd like. If you need help to get going, the forums is one option. That's also where we discuss policy and proposals. You can ask any constable for help, too. Me, for instance! Just put a note on their "talk" page. Again, welcome and thank you! We appreciate your willingness to share your expertise, and we hope to see your edits on Recent changes soon. David E. Volk 22:44, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

speedy deletions

Hi Peter, glad to see that you're joining in! I'm the Constable who does most of the Speedy Deletes these days -- please put a *reason* for the request in each of the templates that you fill out. With Caesar, who's done a ton of them lately, I don't bother to *check* his reason in most cases, but I do like to see that it's there. So I'd appreciate it if you'd fill out the templates for the ones that you've already requested.

For instance, here's a template that Caesar just filled out:

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Template:Contributors_number

Thanks, Hayford Peirce 16:59, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I deleted that particular template after I wrote the message above.

Look, when you make a speedy delete by putting in the speedy delete thing, it is a little more complicated than I remembered, since I've been busy deleting templates for the last couple of months instead of marking articles with the deletion request. When you have a template, or, I guess, anything else that you want a speedy delete on, this is what you add to the page:

{{speedydelete|REASON|~~~~}}

THEN you delete the word REASON and replace it in the center of the new template with your own text, for example,{{speedydelete|I'm sick and tired of looking at this damn template and I ain't gonna take it anymore!|~~~~}}, leaving the four tildes in place. This should then give you:

{{speedydelete|I'm sick and tired of looking at this damn template and I ain't gonna take it anymore!|[[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 21:45, 27 May 2009 (UTC)}}

I'm frankly not up on the difference between <nowXiki> and <noiXnclude>, but I suggest your check this page here, and maybe you'll understand it better than I do:

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Template:Speedydelete

In any case, I'll now delete that template that you wanted me to.Hayford Peirce 21:45, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I have added a short explanation of this to CZ:Article Deletion Policy. Peter Schmitt 22:31, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Yep, I saw that -- thanks! I've discovered as a Constable that there are *lots* of places where instructions are not quite as clear as we might like -- I've had to rewrite some of them myself. Hayford Peirce 00:07, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Renaming Neighbourhood (Mathematics) to Neighbourhood (topology)

Peter, you do not need to delete or redirect either of them. You simply need to "move" (also known as "rename") Neighbourhood (Mathematics) to to Neighbourhood (topology). However, before you can do that, Neighbourhood (Mathematics) really should be made into a CZ articles which it is not at the moment:

• Neighbourhood (Mathematics) needs to at least have subpages and a Metatadata page before it is a CZ article. Also, the edit page of the main article page should have {{subpages}} written as the very top line.

If you wish, I think I could straighten it out for you ... but both you and Hayford Peirce should first stop making changes to avoid our having edit conflicts. Milton Beychok 21:59, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

• I tried renaming/moving first, but it did not work because the target already existed (as a redirect).
• Well, the Metadata page was already missing when I started to rewrite the article. I wanted to finish the edit before trying to do this (this would be the first time ...) However, {{subpages}} was (and is) already at the top. Peter Schmitt 22:27, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm fairly sure I can do the Talk suppage and the Metadata template and straighten out the Move. Do you want me to try? Milton Beychok 22:55, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Why not -- I can delay my "first time". (I'll stop editing until I hear from you) Peter Schmitt 22:58, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Done. Neighbourhood (topology) exists and it has a Metadata template and subpages. I also re-formatted the Related Links subpage and redirected the old Neighbourhood (Mathematics) to the Neighborhood (Disambiguation) page. Milton Beychok 23:33, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. (I will have to edit some of these subpages.) But how did you succeed and overwrite the redirect? Moreover, we now have some "double" redirects from subpages to "Neighbourhood" (a redirect to "Neighbourhood (Disambuigation)") which redirect to "Neighbourhood (topology)". It probably would be best to delete these unnecessary subpages?! My beginner's humble impression is that the process of moving is a little complicated and yet perfect. Peter Schmitt 23:53, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

(unindent)To change a redirect page, simply go into its edit page and redirect it to the new place. As for Neighborhood and Neighbourhood, they should both be redirected to Neighborhood (Disambiguation). The reader then clicks on Neighbourhood (topology) or another choice on the DAB page. That is not a double redirect .. that is how it should work. Must go now. Be back in about 4-5 hours. Milton Beychok 00:05, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

That was (and is) so. What I meant are redirections such as: Neighbourhood/Bibliography →‎ Neighbourhood (Mathematics)/Bibliography →‎ Neighbourhood (topology)/Bibliography. These redirects can be edited. But does a redirect need a "Bibliography" subpage?? (no hurry! and probably not important anyway. I'll go to sleep ;-) Peter Schmitt 00:25, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Peter, when an article is moved (also renamed) correctly, all of the subpages and all of their Histories are also moved (and renamed), so there is no need to redirect them. Milton Beychok 04:12, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Garbage after moving

Milton, I think I understand this. I meant something different: The redirects created automatically by moving will usually be what one wants. However, in some cases (e.g. in this case) it leaves clutter: see Special:DoubleRedirects. "Neighbourhood" is a redirect to "Neighbourhood (Disambiguation)". It does not need -- and officially does not have {{subpages}} -- but there are redirects like
Neighbourhood/Bibliography (Edit) →‎ Neighbourhood (Mathematics)/Bibliography →‎ Neighbourhood (topology)/Bibliography
which are neither sensible nor useful (but could be confusing if someone accidently hits them). They could, of course, be edited to
Neighbourhood/Bibliography (Edit) →‎ Neighbourhood (Disambiguation)/Bibliography
but I think that even this is not really useful. I think they simply should be removed (Maybe I should not be concerned?)
Peter Schmitt 09:35, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree, Peter, and I think they would normally be deleted.

In fact, I think some subpage and definition templates don't work correctly if redirect pages have certain subpages.

Caesar Schinas 09:52, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

speedy delete requests

I see that there are a whole bunch of speedy delete requests here: http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Category:Speedy_Deletion_Requests but when I click on one of them, there is no speedy delete template *at all* and no explanation of why it should be deleted. So I'll leave them until there's more info on each individual one. Hayford Peirce 13:49, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Hayford - this is because Peter has placed the speedydelete temlate on a redirect page after the redirect code. Due to a MediaWiki feature, this doesn't break the redirect, so you are being redirected to a different page. And due to a bug in MediaWiki, even if you do go to the relevant page - eg http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Neighbourhood/Definition&redirect=no - you won't see the template unless you try editing the page.

Peter - the speedydelete template should always be the very first thing on the page. Here's an example, until Hayford deletes it...

Caesar Schinas 13:58, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I learn a lot about technical matters these days ;-) Peter Schmitt 14:10, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh, we all do... I see you've added a note to CZ:Article Deletion Policy‎; well done. Caesar Schinas 14:21, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Status change

Peter, some things only get updated after the Talk page is updated. Try adding 1 blank line to the Talk page. Other things just get updated on some sort of time schedule. David E. Volk 12:58, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, this worked. Incidently, I thought to have read something similar somewhere, but I tried it with the article page. (And by doing this I somehow managed to replace the article by a single subsection ...strange) Peter Schmitt 14:42, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

By pure chance, I just discovered this: Maybe a null edit deleted the text? Peter Schmitt 00:34, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Beware the null edit! One day I thought I would save time while adding the Biochemistry subgroup to dozens of pages, and instead of adding a space or blank line, I did null edits which deleted all text except for intro section. David E. Volk 11:51, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure this is caused by editing just the intro section. If you click the main edit link which edits the entire page, I don't think it can happen. Caesar Schinas 12:47, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

It happened, unintentionally (I thought that I added at least a newline). Because of "undo" it is not really a problem. However, I only noticed it a day later ... Anyway, before reading about "null edits" I sent an eMail to "bugs". Peter Schmitt 18:34, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

But had you clicked "edit", or "edit intro"? Caesar Schinas 06:31, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

And if you had changed the page in any way, it's not a null edit. Caesar Schinas 06:32, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I do not know precisely what I did. As I said, then I was not aware of the problem of a null edit, and my intention was to add a space or a line, but I did not pay much attention and, maybe, I failed to do so. However, it certainly was not the "edit intro" button because I edited a short subsection (as can be seen from the piece of text that got saved). I did not want to call the complete text for this purpose. Peter Schmitt 22:13, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Ah, OK. It comes to the same. My point is that I think the problem with null edits can only occur if you are editing a single section, not if you edit the whole page. Still, it is a bug which needs fixing. I wonder if it happens on Wikipedia too... Caesar Schinas 05:57, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

By the way, note that if you change the page at all, even add one space or newline, it is not a null edit. Null edit means you changed nothing, and doesn't show up in the page history. Caesar Schinas 09:16, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

That is not quite true. I just wanted to add the result of some experiments (and got an edit conflict ;-) The problem occurs not only with null edits, but also if one adds newlines and/or spaces at the end of the section. It seems that in these cases no diff is observed, and then (as with a null edit) the section edited is saved instead of the (unchanged) article. Obviously, if one edits the whole page this shows no effect, even if the bug may be present in this case, too. (So far, I received no reaction on my mail to "bugs".) Peter Schmitt 09:25, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh; I know the same problem occurs, but I just wanted to point out that it's not actually null if you make a change, and it then does show up in the page history. Like this.

As you say, the bug will have no effect if editing the whole page; I hadn't thought abut that. Perhaps it should be reported to the MediaWiki developers.

Caesar Schinas 09:28, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Adding spaces at the end of a line or newlines in the middle of the text seems to work (as in your example above), but then, of course, you have to be careful not to change the appearance of the text. On the other hand, a space or newline at the end of a page is neglected and does not show because no new revision is stored. Peter Schmitt 09:41, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

wikipedia does not show this bug (I tried it in the sandbox). Peter Schmitt 09:54, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Block cipher

The discussion on the talk page includes Roger Lohman asking:

Why is "Linearity" on the Related Articles page the only item lacking a definition? (An oversight most likely; It should be added before approval.)

and my reply:

I'm reluctant to attempt a definition of linearity. I understand some of the applications, but I'm not certain I'd define the general and abstract concept precisely right. Is there a math editor in the house?

Is that something you could fix? Sandy Harris 00:35, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure what material you want to put there. In any case, I doubt that the title "Linearity" is a good choice. I wouldn't use it in mathematics, either (rather: "Linear method", or something more specific). In the case of cryptography, would "Linear cipher" and/ or "Nonlinear cipher" fit (or "Linear method(s) (cryptography")? Peter Schmitt 14:24, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I've never seen any of those terms used. The terms I know in crypto are "nonlinear" as an adjective describing some operation or entity, "nonlinearity" as the property, and "linear cryptanalysis" for a specific class of attack that works with linear approximations to parts of a cipher and massive amounts of data. If you want an example of how cryptographers use the terms, see [1] or the Mister & Adams paper cited in the block cipher article.

It wasn't me who either added linearity among the related topics (probably Howard) or suggested that it needed a definition. I'm just trying to cover all the loose ends so the article can reach approval. My guess would be that it is "nonlinearity (cryptography)" that should be there. My discussion of these issues is at Algebraic attack. Like RSA and several others, that could use a look from a math editor. Sandy Harris 15:52, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

I shall think about it. But my current impression is that no such link is needed since "nonlinearity" only means "not being/using linear functions", and there is no proposal what should be put there. Peter Schmitt 23:41, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Continuum hypothesis

I understand your reluctance to nominate your own article, but many people have done so. It is perfectly acceptable for you to nominate the article as New Draft of the Week. Milton Beychok 17:00, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Milton, I just saw that you already did it. Thanks. Peter Schmitt 19:07, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Peter, now you should add yourself as a supporter and change the score to 2. That is perfectly acceptable and quite often done. Milton Beychok 20:09, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Non-Borel set

Peter, could you please look at my new article Non-Borel set? It is a short article intended for a reader not acquainted with descriptive set theory and curious to know whether a specific example of a non-Borel set can be constructed.

Your comments are welcome, the more so that I am a newbie here. Do you think this article should be developed further? If so, --- in which direction? If not --- can it be approved? Boris Tsirelson 17:44, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Colosseum of rhodes

I don't know where I got that, thanks for fixing it...Drew R. Smith 11:58, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks

Hi Peter. Thanks for your help. I did not know the proper functioning of the categories. Greetings.

Do find the current suggested lede for 'chemical elements' okay to put up as working version?

Peter:

I believe I responded to your latest comments my sandbox version of 'chemical elements'. If you're okay with that version as a working version for continued collaborative development, please indicate so on: http://en.citizendium.org:8080/wiki/Talk:Chemical_elements#Lede_revised_in_response_to_Paul_and_Peter.

If Paul does the same, I will seek Milton's okay to replace the current Main Article with it, so authors can start working on the article again.

You can view the current version of the sandbox article at: http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/User:Anthony.Sebastian/SebastianSandbox/Chemical_elements

Thanks for your input. Anthony.Sebastian 19:53, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Complex number

Congratulations on your first approval! (It is your first isn't it!?) Thanks for taking the lead on this one - hopefully there are many, many more to come. D. Matt Innis 03:22, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks (delayed after a week of absence). However, I consider it rather as the zeroth approval because it was a merely copyedit to repair an unfortunate formulation. Many more approvals? Unfortunately, this will not be easy -- so far, I did not see an article I would like to approve as it is. Peter Schmitt 17:25, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

It was a good one for you to "get your feet wet!" I am glad to hear that you have high expectations for approvals of articles. We are actually counting on that quality in our editors. It will be a lot easier when we get three editor aprovals and you can actually edit the articles. In the meantime, you are welcome to edit all of them as you see fit and then when other editors arrive, you will have already made your changes.

However you decide to do it, I very much appreciate your efforts and expertise. Thanks, D. Matt Innis 16:06, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Crypto articles

There are several articles, all mainly my writing, about cryptography that could use a look from a math editor. Especially RSA and Discrete logarithm, since those are directly mathematical, but also Diffie-Hellman, Algebraic attack. International Data Encryption Algorithm and Block_cipher#Resisting_linear_.26_differential_attacks. Would you have time for some of those? Sandy Harris 14:54, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, looking at finite field, I notice that the article defines only one type. However, in Discrete logarithm, I imply that there are multiple types. I thought that was the case, but now I'm confused. Can you clarify? Does one article need correction? Sandy Harris 15:49, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Replying to your comment on my talk page, I thought here were "multiple types" of finite field, one type defined modulo an integer (usually a prime, but does it have to be to make the multiplication work right?), another type defined relative to an elliptic curve, perhaps others I'm not aware of. Sandy Harris 11:00, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

There is a finite field for each prime power p^d. You could say, the characteistic p is a type, or the "dimension" d is a type. For d=1 you have the residue class fields Z_p. Aren't elliptic curves inducing a group only (and not a field)? Peter Schmitt 13:24, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I do not know; the last formal math study I did was intro calculus & linear algebra about 40 years ago. Since the Diffie-Hellman protocol can use "oakley groups" based on an elliptic curve (e.g. See RFC 2309) and that protocol involves exponentiation, I'd assumed there were fields involved. There are; the RFC has, for example:

  "... a EC2N group with the following
  characteristics. ... The curve is
  based on the Galois Field GF[2^155]. The field size is 155. The
  irreducible polynomial for the field is:
         u^155 + u^62 + 1.
  The equation for the elliptic curve is:
          y^2 + xy = x^3 + ax^2 + b.

However, fields do not seem to be involved in the way I thought. I've really no idea if my text in discrete logarithm, "There are several variants of the problem for different types of field. The IKE protocol uses two variants, either over a field modulo a prime or over a field defined by an elliptic curve." is actually correct. Sandy Harris 18:41, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry that I did not answer earlier. I did not yet check how elliptic curves are used in cryptography (I only know that they are), but the excerpt shows that the are used over a finite field. That means that the values for x and y are elements of the field. The field used is the field with p=2 and d=255. Peter Schmitt 13:54, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Reply

I left you a reply on my talk page Drew R. Smith 11:33, 8 August 2009 (UTC)