Talk:Bill Clinton

Bill Clinton

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Article Checklist for "Bill Clinton"

Workgroup category or categories	Politics Workgroup, History Workgroup, Topic Informant Workgroup [Categories OK]
Article status	Developing article: beyond a stub, but incomplete
Underlinked article?	No
Basic cleanup done?	Yes
Checklist last edited by	Versuri 10:25, 25 June 2007 (CDT)

To learn how to fill out this checklist, please see CZ:The Article Checklist.

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Editor plan and guidelines

• A general principle of all articles about political figures: it should be impossible to determine whether the authors are supporters or opponents of the subject of the article. Citizendium is neither Democrat nor Republican.

This article talk page is now under dispute watch

See CZ:Dispute Watch. You're going to have to start using the {{prop}} template in the way that page describes, illustrated here: Talk:Oriental (word). We're testing out a dispute resolution idea, but I'm taking the test seriously. From now on, disputation on this page must be on-topic, and on-topic means (1) aimed at a specific proposition, (2) the proposition must concern the wording of the text, and (3) engaging in a dispute, as opposed to how to characterize the dispute, is off-topic. Call it the Anti-Bloviation Rule!  :-) --Larry Sanger 07:26, 3 August 2007 (CDT)

What follows is not my most passionately held belief, nor is it a particularly important issue IMHO, but it is an issue none-the-less and I'm going to try to push it through this new system to see how the system works. Will Nesbitt 06:39, 5 August 2007 (CDT)

The appropriateness of the word "brilliant" to describe any political figure.

Commented out section. Feel free to reinstate after the proposition actually makes a specific claim or proposal about the text: this one did not even constitute a full sentence. --Larry Sanger 03:27, 7 August 2007 (CDT)

Relevance

Proposition: This sentence "Clinton has become a major fundraiser and campaigner for his wife, with his special appeal to the African American vote to neutralize her main opponent, Barak Obama" is very nearly factual, but is mostly editorial. A better sentence would be: "Currently, Clinton is a major fundraiser and campaigner for his wife." With a source to support this claim."

This article is on dispute watch. This requires that all argumentation directly concern clearly-stated propositions about article wording.

A comment here was deleted by The Constabulary on grounds of making complaints about fellow Citizens. If you have a complaint about the behavior of another Citizen, e-mail constables@citizendium.org. It is contrary to Citizendium policy to air your complaints on the wiki. See also CZ:Professionalism.

the issue of the black vote is very important in Dem primary, and the experts report it as a contest between Obama and BILL Clinton. CZis not taking sides for or against any candidate here. Richard Jensen 00:43, 6 August 2007 (CDT)

I agree. The issue is important. Importance and relevance are two different things. Let's stick to relevant facts and avoid editorials at all costs. Will Nesbitt 09:53, 6 August 2007 (CDT)

Will, what's the problem at all? Why would the above be a better sentence? The original sentence is both true and uncontroversial, isn't it? --Larry Sanger 03:32, 7 August 2007 (CDT)

Experts

Here's what experts say:

• "The [1992] victory was clearly a result of Clinton's superiority as a campaigner, combining

broad knowledge and clear articulation of issues, unbounded personal energy ..."[1]

• "Clinton proved to be an agile and resourceful campaigner, supported

by a good organization and ample funding." [2]

• "Clinton: Quiet Momentum The Comeback Kid is a fierce campaigner" (Washington TIMES< right wing newspaper)
• " that consummate campaigner" [3], British journal of political science
• "campaigner Clinton came on strong" [4]
• "the Great Campaigner" London Review of Books
• "Clinton is known as "the Great Campaigner." US pol Sci journal [5] Richard Jensen 15:54, 5 August 2007 (CDT)

I would support inserting any of these quotes into the article.

I suggest balancing these quotes with alternative viewpoints such as liberal Sam Smith who wrote: "CLINTON WAS NOWHERE NEAR as good a politician as the Washington media and political establishment has claimed and the myth has proved to be a destructive fantasy for the party." This is a quote from Shadows of Hope: A Freethinker's Guide to Politics in the Time of Clinton by Sam Smith co-author of 50 Reasons Not to Vote for Bush. Here's a complete breakdown of why this liberal author has written a book to deconstruct the Clinton myth. Will Nesbitt 18:17, 5 August 2007 (CDT)

Smith is a left winger who complained that Clinton failed to pass a left-wing agenda in hisfirst year in office. He does not comment on Clinton the campaigner.Richard Jensen 00:56, 6 August 2007 (CDT)

Smith's commented on Clinton's campaigning by charging that the Clinton legacy is "Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions" and "Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions from abroad" and "47 individuals and businesses associated with the Clinton machine were convicted of or pleaded guilty to crimes with 33 of these occurring during the Clinton administration itself." Would you prefer a right-wing assault on the claims of Clinton's greatness?

BTW, you have misunderstood this as my personal assault on Clinton it is not. I also oppose the descriptor of Clinton as "a mediocre speaker". We cannot say with absolute certitude that Clinton is "brilliant" this or "mediocre" that. Those are opinions. Let's stick to facts and quote others for opinions. Will Nesbitt 09:52, 6 August 2007 (CDT)

"Do no harm" should be our motto. When we say "some believe XYZ" users read that as "some do NOT believe XYZ". In the Clinton issues discussed here (on campaigning and speaking) there is unanimity among experts (including Sam Smith who was mis-characterized--he actually equated Clinton to the best campaigner of the 20th century--it was Clinton's POLITICAL GOALS Smith denounced). As for "opinions" --yes that is what encyclopedias are full of: the opinions of experts. We are built around that and the notion that there are "facts" versus "opinions" is very poorly formulated misunderstanding of scholarship. Richard Jensen 10:26, 6 August 2007 (CDT)

Despite your thinly veiled insult, we're finally and surprisingly close to an understanding here. Please understand, I am not opposed to inserting expert opinions in scholarly works or encyclopedias. What I'm opposed to is stating expert opinions as if they were facts. Facts can be stated plainly, but expert opinions are not facts and thus they must be sourced and referenced. Will Nesbitt 10:37, 6 August 2007 (CDT)

Only experts can tell the difference between "facts" and "opinions" (because facts are what experts agree on). They do this by intense in-depth analysis of primary and secondary sources, with sustained debates in serious forums. CZ (as opposed to Wikipedia) has made a commitment to reliance on the experts and scholars. Richard Jensen 10:47, 6 August 2007 (CDT)

That's your opinion. ;^)

Seriously though, I may be wrong but after some reflection I think that statement reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the neutral policy of CZ. As I understand it, we are here to provide information and the reader is there to decide. However, it's not my place to put an editor in check. Therefore, I think we'll want to check this one with the Editor-in-Chief.Will Nesbitt 11:11, 6 August 2007 (CDT)

CZ policy: 2. t will be the project's aim to make the content of the Citizendium:

       * accurate
       * based on common experience, published, credible research, and expert opinion
       * neutral in this sense
       * legal and responsible
       * family-friendly from [6] Richard Jensen 12:48, 6 August 2007 (CDT)

Footnote #1

That takes us down to Klein, who I assume is Joe Klein, but then the link does *not* take us to a Klein citation. Shouldn't there be a clear "Source" that tells us what the Klein reference is? I.e.,

--Sources--

• Presidents I Have Known and Scorned, by Joe Klein, Time magazine, July 4, 2005, page 24

...said Hayford Peirce (talk) (Please sign your talk page posts by simply adding four tildes, ~~~~.)

A comment was removed from the talk page here because the article is under dispute watch. The comment was not on-topic for a particular proposition. Please do see CZ:Dispute Watch for background.

the Klein reference is to his full-length book on the clinton presidency which is cited in the bibliog Klein is a top political reporter and expert on campaigns see [7] and [8] Richard Jensen 01:02, 6 August 2007 (CDT)

I'm sorely tempted to delete the above exchanges as they do not make use of {{prop}}: will you please convert them now? --Larry Sanger 22:04, 6 August 2007 (CDT)

the question was what was the ambiguous Klein reference, and I answered it (his recent book on Clinton)Richard Jensen 00:37, 7 August 2007 (CDT)

Hold off

How about no more than two propositions per person at a time? This is to keep things manageable.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 20:03, 5 August 2007 (CDT)

The page is beginning to look hilarious:-) Probably, your two propositions per person per day should be in the rules. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 20:06, 5 August 2007 (CDT)

I added this.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 20:45, 5 August 2007 (CDT)