Help talk:Index/Formatting/References

Carry-over from sandbox draft version

This looks good so far. A couple of notes:

• It may be easier to start off with a simple example that does not use the cite template. For example: <ref>http://forum.citizendium.org/ - Citizendium Forums</ref>. Then introduce the idea of the cite template in the next section.
• Personally I would put the "Single insertion of a reference" section before the "Multiple insertion of the same reference", as the former is the simpler case. I find it always best to start with the easiest things, and work up to the more complex things.
• It may be worth mentioning that if there are a lot of references then {{reflist|2}} can be used.
• I'm not sure on this, and it is a matter of personal taste, but we could split the article up into three different articles in order to simplify the process of the user finding exactly what they want. The first section could be an introduction to what references are, the second could be instructions on inserting the embedded inline references, and the third could be about using the cite template.

Of course, all of these are just opinions and you don't have to follow them. --Chris Key 10:45, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Chris, thanks for your review. I agree with your first three suggestions and will work them in. As for your last suggestion, I think it is better to keep the article as it is rather than splitting it into three articles. Milton Beychok 04:10, 2 August 2010 (UTC) (This was my response as best as I remember. History of discussion of the sandbox version got lost after the article was created in the namespace.)

Edits and revisions

Typo, spelling and grammar edits are welcome. However, it would be greatly appreciated if major or significant additions, deletions or revisions were first thoroughly discussed on this Talk page. Milton Beychok 03:49, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Broken references

This is a very informative page, and I found the instructions easy to use, thanks. The only thing not perfect is that at the bottom of the page it says:

• Cite error: <ref> tags exist, but no <references/> tag was found

and I am not confident what I should do to fix it. David Finn 01:58, 11 May 2011 (CDT)

Good pick-up, David. I fixed it. The problem was that I repeated the example a second time in the "How to place the reference insertion points" section which meant that another {{reflist}} was needed ... but two {{reflist}}s on one page really causes a mess. So instead of the <ref>..</ref> references in that second example, I used blue colored superscripts. Milton Beychok 11:58, 11 May 2011 (CDT)

Multiple references with different page numbers

One may wish to cite a source already cited with different page numbers, for example, upon first appearance:

• Patrick Suppes (1972). Axiomatic set theory, Reprint of D Van Nostrand 1960 ed. Courier-Dover, pp. 14 ff. ISBN 0486616304. 

and for the second appearance, perhaps:

• Patrick Suppes. Previously cited work, pp. 50 ff. ISBN 0486616304. 

The idea is to (i) clearly identify that the same work is cited again, and (ii) provide the relevant link and page numbers. The in-line <ref></ref>'s are then something like <ref name =Suppes1></ref> and <ref name= Suppes2></ref>. WP has a "harvard" reference system to do this a bit differently, but I've found that to be too much overhead. Any comments? John R. Brews 17:42, 11 May 2011 (CDT)

John, you are correct. The way to use a single reference multiple times (for different pages within that reference) is just as you have described it. However, it is even easier to do that with the new method described at CZ:List-defined references and which was installed with the recent upgrade of our MediWiki software about a week ago. The only thing I would do somewhat differently is not to use "Previously cited work" as the title of the second (or third or etc.) use. I would simply repeat the entire source information ... it is just a simple copy-and-paste job and all one has to do is after completing the paste is to change the page numbers. Milton Beychok 21:34, 11 May 2011 (CDT)

I have used this approach with <ref name= ??></ref> in my comment above. It makes the ref list look like it is well populated even if only one reference actually is used, but many times.

The WP approach schematically works like this (as you may know): It places a list of titles and all relevant info at the end of the article under some rubric like "General references", but with no page numbers. Entries in this list are named, for example a name might be "Suppes 1972". Then in the main text one can use <ref name=Suppes 1972, pp. 25-36> and what appears in the {{Reflist}} is simply "Suppes 1972; pp. 25-36" which is linked to take you down to the location of the full reference details under "General references".

I wonder if the CZ "Bibliography" page could be used like that? The main text could provide an entry in the reflist with only an author name and page numbers, but that links to the general info about that title on the Bibliography page?

The advantage of this approach is elimination of redundant info, and a clear picture of the multiple use of a source. Repetition of all the info with each page reference is more of a clutter, and one cannot see at a glance what the reference structure is. Of course, one doesn't really need this approach unless the article is a long one that depends heavily upon repeated reference to a few sources. I am not aware of any articles like this yet on CZ. John R. Brews 10:49, 12 May 2011 (CDT)

John, once again, read CZ:List-defined references which I just wrote last week. It describes how to use that WP system you just described. It only became available to us when we upgraded our MediaWii software very recently. That is why you have not yet seen it used in CZ. I would encourage everyone to use it ... it has many advantages. Most of all, it eliminates the clutter from the body of the edit page text and transfers it down to the References section at the bottom of the edit pages. - Milton Beychok 13:36, 12 May 2011 (CDT)

Milt: I know you are busy, and this matter is not a priority. I just want to note that I have used this system from the outset on CZ; for example see footnotes 11 and 13 in this article. It is not what I have described above. Am I misunderstanding you somehow, or are you simply skim reading my protracted commentary? We can skip all this if you like. John R. Brews 14:09, 12 May 2011 (CDT)