Talk:Ellipse/Archive 1

Probably this picture could be used: [1] (Fig.207), see [2]. Boris Tsirelson 05:12, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

I added two pictures from that source. Incidentally, feel free to change/adapt/add stuff, CZ is a wiki, you know. --Paul Wormer 12:08, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

trammel, figs.

1. I have doubts about fig.2; it seems to me that the central line should overlap with the red and the green ellipsi, until their centers.
2. I like the deduction of the Trammel. Who was Trammel? What century, what country did he/she live?
3. How about to borrow the animation of the trammel device grom wikipedia; I mean, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bsgrinder.gif ?
4. As for the drawing with a string... I used the loop to draw ellipsi; then the whole ellipse can be drawn at once. (The lenth of the string should be extended with a piece of length equal to the distance betwin the focuses.)
Dmitrii Kouznetsov 18:30, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Dmitri, I'll try to follow your advice on fig. 2 later today. I made it with Autocad and have no code. If you can make a better picture I would appreciate it. Look in an English dictionary for trammel, it is not a person. (I didn't know the word either). We are not allowed to use animated gifs, or using stuff from Wikipedia. Material from WP is only allowed if the real name of the author is known and we have written permission. With regard to the loop: I followed the description and the picture in the book. Boris suggested that I include the picture and I wrote the text to match it.

I have a question to the mathematicians: two things are missing. The quadric Ax²+Bxy+Cy²+Dx+Ey+F=0 and the definition by means of directrices (vertical lines at fixed distance from foci). Is that bad?--Paul Wormer 06:13, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Ah, now I can answer, since Peter gave appropriate terms. I believe, these are medial gaps! (That is, less than major gaps, but larger than minor gaps.) But I must admit, this classification is not uncontroversial. Boris Tsirelson 14:48, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

A trammel point is also a woodworking guide that attaches to a router (tool) to cut elliptical holes. It's actually a little misnamed, as it physically consists of several pieces, such as an anchor point, guide arm, and attachment to the cutting tool base. Howard C. Berkowitz 14:54, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Another way to construct an ellipse is illustrated here. --Daniel Mietchen 19:38, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

What a pity that it contains the two irrelevant spheres; the cone and the plane would be nice without them. Boris Tsirelson 19:48, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't think the spheres are irrelevant, since they define the focal points. --Daniel Mietchen 20:07, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

The picture does not show this. It rather looks as if the two spheres were touching (and the plane cuts them?) The connection between the spheres and the foci would be better shown in a two-dimensional projection. (Eventually there should be conic and second order curve for a general discussion.)

The general quadric is not needed here because this is about geometrical properties (perhaps? the equation with shifted center?).

What I rather miss is the ellipse as affine transformation of a circle (x,y) -> (x,ky).

Peter Schmitt 22:22, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

On "gaps": major, medium, minor -- that is, of course, partially a matter of taste (and can be argued), just as "useful" is. Only "mistakes" should be non controversial, at least in mathematics. --Peter Schmitt 22:53, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

(unindent) dynamic figures
Paul, do you know if we can use java applets on CZ pages? Or should I ask in the forum? --Peter Schmitt 22:26, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Current state is no, unfortunately. --Daniel Mietchen 23:01, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Approvals etc

Let me express my opinion, probably quite controversial.

0. It is not the question, "is it bad?"; it is THE question, "should the article be approved?".

1. The approval mechanism is THE feature of CZ. We should not dream of Google juice when our articles are "unapproved, subject to disclaimer, not to be cited".

2. Unfortunately, in order to approve advanced math articles we need many (20..100) active math editors (then it will be reasonably probable to find at least two editors competent in the favorite matter of an author).

3. Fortunately, in order to approve undergraduate math articles it is enough to have just two active math editors, provided that... see (6) below.

4. Two necessary conditions for approval: (a) not misleading; in math context it just means, no errors; and (b) useful.

5. Desirable but NOT NECESSARY, and in fact not reachable: unimprovable. It is always possible to add something, or make a small improvement. "Useful" does not mean "as useful as at all possible". I understand that in a political context, to miss some aspect may be an intolerable bias. But in math context this is not an issue. Some aspect is missing? Well, work on it AFTER approval, if you can and want.

6. Thus, I call math editors to strive to approve articles (satisfying the two necessary conditions), not to find a reason to delay the approval.

A1. Regretfully, today we have at most two active math editors: Peter Schmitt‎ and Dmitrii Kouznetsov. (I would be happy to be wrong in this point.) I've asked both about possible approval of "Ellipse". One did not reply (yet), the other made some remarks.

A2. I can apply for the editor status, if I'll feel that this will help. That is, if at least one existing editor will support my attitude expressed above.

Boris Tsirelson 11:15, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

By the way (off-topic), my attitude to refereeing journal articles is similar: a referee should point out errors and minor, evident improvements. However, a substantial improvement is a business of authors. The referee can (if needed) write a subsequent article later (being already an author, not a referee). Boris Tsirelson 11:26, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Boris, I'm somewhat puzzled by the fact that your general comments are on this particular page. The forum would be a better place for your thoughts.

I gave this article level 2, which means that it is (IMHO) not yet ready for approval. Further, I did not know that you're not a math editor, my question to the math editors was also directed to you. Do I understand from your above comments that in your opinion the directrix and quadric don't need to be added to this article?

Finally, one editor is enough to approve an article, so if you become an editor you can approve any math article you want.

--Paul Wormer 12:19, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Really, by one editor?! Did I miss a major change of the rules? Or did I misunderstood the rules from the beginning? Boris Tsirelson 14:33, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Why here and not on a forum? Because we have no math forum (WP has, by the way). And the "general" forum is too verbose for a mathematician... Sorry Paul, here by "mathematician" I mean everyone contributing to math articles. Boris Tsirelson 15:11, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

In principle, there is a math forum — it's just rarely been used (like all the other Workgroup-specific forums), and as far as I can see, it does not render TeX. --Daniel Mietchen 15:31, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

About level 2: not only me, also Peter considers it as basically ready. But of course, if you want to work on it further, I do not want to disturb you with a premature approval. Boris Tsirelson 15:17, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

By the way (off-topic), my attitude to refereeing journal articles is similar: a referee should point out errors and minor, evident improvements. However, a substantial improvement is a business of authors. The referee can (if needed) write a subsequent article later (being already an author, not a referee). Boris Tsirelson 11:26, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict: written parallel to Paul's comment)

On the whole, I agree with you, Boris. With (4) I would also include: (c) and there are no MAJOR gaps (meaning: all top "level topics" are at least mentioned; drastic example: prime number without: there are infinitely many, and factorization of natural numbers). Unless you include this already with (b), usefulness.

As for your item (5), I have to admit that I thought about some additions to Paul's text (instead of thinking about approval), but when I read your message this night (even before reading this), it occured to me that, in this case, it might be better to approve first and then make changes.

I, and -- if I remember it correctly, Paul too -- are not so much concerned with approvals, one reason being that (re)approval of approved but extended aricles is not easy to do under the current rules with a lack of non-involved editors.

Another difficulty is that even minor changes (clarifications of wordings, etc.) are likely to be classified as "adding content" instead of mere "copy editing". (If you want to see an example for this, then you will find it on the talk page of Complex number. I hope that these rules will be revised some time in the future.) Having three editors would change this radically because then (even) all three may have contributed content AND were allowed to approve the article.

Peter Schmitt 12:45, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Peter, I am glad to see that our views are rather close. About (c), I agree. About a number of inconveniences caused by approval, I believe that we should be patient to them, since, I believe, approval is very important for survival of CZ. Boris Tsirelson 14:40, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Till now I felt that my idea of approval is too different from that of CZ; thus I was reluctant. But now I feel I should apply for editor status (and then we'll be three math editors, wow). Boris Tsirelson 15:22, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Let's wait for Dmitrii with approving. Maybe he knows how to draw nice conic intersections, and has some more comments.--Paul Wormer 16:23, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Of course. And by the way, I am now in the list of (active) math editors. Boris Tsirelson 18:36, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Boris, I have registered only a few weeks earlier than you. I, too, do not really know what the "CZ idea of approval" is. I think that this is still up to evolution, and will certainly be a much discussed topic (together with the approval process) when, finally, a Charter will be ratified ...

My personal idea is (briefly): "a correct and reasonably complete survey/summary of the topic, well structured and reasonably well written. For "developed" it is essentially the same: correctness, of course, but I would accept some more omissions, and more flaws in the presentation.

Welcome, and thank you for joining as Editor. --Peter Schmitt 22:43, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Boris, and other Math editors:

You noticed that you had been added to the list of approved math editors' even before I got a chance to send you a note advising you of that decision. Your request came to me from the Constabulary earlier today, and after I reviewed it the case seems pretty clear-cut. Happy editing! And I join you in hoping this will result in increased approvals of articles from this workgroup! The procedure for approving Editors from among existing active Authors is pretty informal, so if those of you who are currently editors wish to recommend others, please contact me or any of the other EPA's with your recommendations.

Roger Lohmann 19:54, 3 May 2010 (UTC), Editorial Personnel Administrator

Thank you. Boris Tsirelson 04:19, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Affine transformation

"What I rather miss is the ellipse as affine transformation of a circle (x,y) -> (x,ky)". Peter, remember the Wiki idea. Why don't you add it to the present article? I don't see appear soon two (algebraic and geometric) articles on the ellipse, so, for the time being, all pieces of info should go in this article, including the y scaling.

In my opinion the algebraic equation (before rotation and translation) is pretty important, too. It so happens that I read a lecture by Weyl the other day in which he stated: "As you know the ellipse is ax² + 2bxy + cy² = 1 with a > 0, b > 0, ac−b² >0". Anybody reading this should be able to find it in Citizendium, because that's what an encyclopedia is for.

Boris, congratulations, quite an honor ;-). Yes one editor alone can approve an article, see, e.g., Macromolecular chemistry.

--Paul Wormer 08:12, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the information, it helps. Boris Tsirelson 12:32, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

For current rules on approval see [[CZ:Approval process#Who may approve: For current rules on approval see CZ:Approval process#Who may approve

Paul, you need not remind me that I may edit the article. It was not a request that you do it, but only in answer to your question.

One reason to refrain from editing can be the intention to save the right to approve an article (now less imporatant because there is a second participating editor).

Another reason may be the attempt to preserve a uniform style because additions by another author may make the page less coherent.

In any case, I'll do a copyedit of the article (soon). --Peter Schmitt 12:50, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

English

English is difficult. Peter changed "reflection in a line" to "reflection about a line". My first reflex was that that couldn't be right, but it is. I checked a book on group theory by an American author and found that he writes "reflection about a line" and "reflection in a plane". Prepositions, they are a nightmare. --Paul Wormer 08:30, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

PS Peter, did you also check the math? Errors in the math are more disturbing than errors in the language.--Paul Wormer 09:09, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I have not yet finished. Yes, of course, a mathematical error would be much more disturbing. Most of the changes were not meant to correct your English but as an attempt to express some point more clearly. Following Boris' suggestion I want to leave the article essentially as it is now, and do not want to make major changes where I would, perhaps, use a different approach. --Peter Schmitt 21:29, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I knew "reflection about" before, but now I saw a book where "reflection in" is used. Don't know what is "better" or more "common". --Peter Schmitt 12:22, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

"in" seems much more natural to me. Peter Jackson 14:39, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

I'd definitely use "about a line" and "in a plane". To me, reflection "in a line" reads as swapping the points end-to-end about some unmoved center point. I'm an English teacher & native speaker, know a bit about some areas of math but haven't looked at geometry since high school decades ago. Sandy Harris 03:45, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

This does get messy. Thinking further, I find that going up a dimension I'd want to say reflection "in 3-space " "through" a plane. I do not claim this is correct mathematical terminology, just what I'd say.

Is there some more formal usage among mathematicians, reflection "relative to a line" or some such? If so, should that be introduced here? Sandy Harris 06:47, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Quadratic equation

So far, the proof only shows that the conditions are sufficient, while the statement of the conditions for an ellipse is ambiguous and does not make clear whether they are meant to be necessary as well. --Peter Schmitt 12:33, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Please go ahead, make the conditions necessary and sufficient and remove ambiguities. I conceived of this section myself, without an example. Not being a mathematician I can believe that its formulation can be improved greatly.--Paul Wormer 12:55, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Paul, as I already said, my approach to the whole topic would be entirely different. Thus I restrict myself to copyediting the article, and staying close to your style. Your approach is probably right for readers who have a similar relation to mathematics as you (and your notation following practice in physics). They might not like my way of telling the story.

I changed your bb symbols to bf because these are almost exclusively used for some standard sets and objects, and if you write vectors in bold, then it is only natural to use bold for matrices.

And I replaced the equiv-symbol because it usually is used to show equivalence with respect to some equivalence relation (and not for definitions or equality.) I think it isn't used in physics, either. In mathematics, if definitions are indicated at all, often either ${\stackrel {\rm {def}}{=}}$ or := is used. The latter has the advantage that it can be used in two directions: := or =:

--Peter Schmitt 23:13, 8 May 2010 (UTC)