CZ:Proposals/Internationalisation sandbox
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Complete explanation
We have already decided that having international CZs is long term goal. There have been many requests for CZ pilots to begin in other languages, but so far nothing has gotten off the ground. Inasmuch as 1) we are losing competent authors whose first language is not English but 2) we do not have the time, personnel or expertise to begin complete CZs in other languages, I propose a sandbox type setup in which those who will can go ahead and begin articles in other languages, but these will be hidden from public view until a bona fide project can be set up in that language. Note that unlike the "sandbox" we have now, these drafts would not be discarded when the user signs off.
Reasoning
There is a whole Forum board devoted to internationalisation http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/board,21.0.html but nothing concrete has come of it, despite repeated requests and much discussion. We are losing the expertise of authors and editors whose first language is not English. We have a wiki page where people are listing the languages in which they are competent. CZ:International We have no one workspace for internationalisation, discussions are fragmented, newbies join and raise the same already-discussed issues again. If nothing else, this will help eliminated frustration and will be a positive, concrete and proactive step in the right direction. People can work in other languages without pressure and, because the drafts will be invisible, we will not risk ridicule if the standard of the foreign-language CZ is not up to that of the English-language CZ at the outset.
Implementation
We would need a technical person to tell us if this is feasible, can we section off a portion of the wiki for foreign-language articles and make it invisible to the public. Will there be one space for all, or a separate space for each.
We will need to decide what language(s), and the minumum numbers of authors at what expertise level will be required to open a wikispace in that language. Can people work without editors, or must there be at least one (or more) qualified editors fluent in the language?
Discussion
Thank you!
In my opinion not many people will be active on a private wiki (non public articles) and such an approach will not help bootstrap it by exposition to potential contributors.
The Citizendium project has a favor for English. This is quite understandable given its origins and not a problem for me. Moreover some prominent contributors seem to fear that editions in other languages may be of poor quality, probably due to some lack of peer-review. Therefore I suggest launching a French version, as French seems to be just behind English when it comes to languages among CZ contributors (I'm proposing because I can help), and only if at least a few (3?) respected CZ contributors accept to form an editing committee validating each new article or maybe (that's up to them) each revision (version of an article). To avoid reinventing anything this Fr edition will proceed under the rules of the English CZ. Contributors will be encouraged to create new articles as well as to translate and complete English articles.
Please note that P. Gross already asked a pertinent and concise question and, AFAIK, did not receive any answer. By trying to understand I came to the conclusion that a French edition may help Nat Makarevitch 03:48, 15 February 2008 (CST)
I would contribute to a German sandbox. As I am just writing up my Ph.D. thesis in computer science, I am planning to become a computer science editor in the near future. So there would be at least one Editor for the German sandbox. As I don't think that we should have only one such sandbox (French) and as there are some German natives on CZ:International, I propose a German one. Let's get started! -- Alexander Wiebel 05:46, 15 February 2008 (CST)
Woohoo! Great news, Aleta! Finally there would be a proper place for User:Yuval_Langer/he_bacteriophage to live in! Yuval Langer 08:25, 15 February 2008 (CST)
I support a sandbox version for French authors in an invite only system to see how and indeed if it works. In other words, the only people involved should be the people who have expressed interest, and others must be invited to add to the sandbox, at least until a solid system is established around it. Denis Cavanagh 08:55, 15 February 2008 (CST)
At the moment I think that supporting additional languages wouldn't be an wise investment of resources. We should first focus our energy on building the English one. Christian Kleineidam 12:28, 15 February 2008 (CST)
Count me in for Citoyendium - le compendium citoyen. (le Citizendium français - - le Citizendium de la francophonie - le Citizendium francophone). I agree with Nat Makarevitch that a sandbox-only Fr-CZ will lack the appeal that wikis usually have. The authoritative nature of CZ in general and of approved articles in particular should guide us; approved articles translated to any language should be speedily published. My sub-proposal would be: Create an Eduzendium «fork» devoted to the translation of En-CZ to Fr-CZ, Ge-CZ, and, of course, chinese-CZ ;). All over the world, translation students long to develop their skills in real-life situations. CZ approved articles are amongst the most appealing texts that one can find on the web. (And I know firsthand how difficult it is for teachers to find suitable texts that students will want to translate.) As a CZ author, I would be proud to contribute to the translation of some of those approved articles, such as Life (NB: another revision is under preparation). All this being said, sandbox articles are a realistic solution to keep non-EN contributors. These contributors should be encouraged to find candidate translators and translation schools in their linguistic community to facilitate, via this Eduzendium «fork», the translation of their work to CZ's mother tongue, English, in an effort to join forces, beyond language barriers. We cannot picture an authoritative CZ that would have as many different CZs as there are CZ language versions. The cross-language debates in CZ will bring nice surprises. Such a system would also attract scholarly interest and sympathy from intellectuals in various fields where the "Babylon problem" is well understood (linguistics, sociology, etc.) Pierre-Alain Gouanvic 13:34, 15 February 2008 (CST)
- I also agree with Nat Makarevitch, a private wiki would be of little use for internationalisation. I don't need CZ to write some articles on the subjects I'm interested in and keep them private. No incentive at all therefore for those who want so hare their knowledge with the rest of the world. I'd advocate instead the launch from the start of one or two projects such as a German or French CZ. I'm pretty sure we can find some users with the technical knowledge to set up the framework quite effectively. I can help at least on that. Wikis such as Wikipedia were also launched with only a few users, we shouldn't be afraid of doing the same! --Quentin Michon 14:24, 15 February 2008 (CST)
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