Talk:Intelligent design

Help on contributing to this article

When editing this article please consider the following things which have been generally supported by the contributors to date (this should ultimately be edited by, or replaced by policies and plans drafted by, editors who are experts in this topic):

• The article is filed under science and should not include a theological or religious discussion about intelligent design. Instead, if important religious people or theologians have made comments about the issue, they should be referred to in the article as proponents/opponents and links put to their pages on CZ. Perhaps there should even be a page Intelligent_Design_religious in the religion section to describe the religious debate behind the issue. [Sorry, but I don't really get this item. Why shouldn't theological considerations about intelligent design be permitted? --Larry Sanger 12:28, 26 February 2007 (CST)]

Hi Larry. There are various arguments based on the authority of Scripture that ID *cannot* demonstrate that there is a creator. I just don't believe such discussions are appropriate in an article filed under science. Moreover, the article is likely to become much longer if it is to nuance the views of all the important religious authorities who have commented on the issue, and finally the article will attract far more criticism and ridicule (= edit wars, vandalism, etc) if it seems to make theological arguments. I am not saying such things are not appropriate to be recorded in CZ somewhere, just not in an article filed under science. There isn't any reason why we can't mention that such views exist, however, and point to articles elsewhere in CZ that nuance the issues. Also, ID proponents have been quite religious about not making arguments from Scripture to support ID (at least not when speaking to academics and in the popular press), so I think it would be misrepresentation of the ID hypothesis to present arguments for or against it in the principal article on ID in CZ. William Hart 09:45, 27 February 2007 (CST)

• The article should not make arguments from authority, e.g. imply that all sensible/smart people have rejected ID as being religious (and therefore presumed irrational). It may, of course, state that most of the relevant scientists reject ID as unscientific.
• The arguments of proponents and opponents of ID should be made with specific attention to conveying the reasoning behind those arguments in a clear and lucid way and the readers should be left to make up their own minds. The article should not seek to provide rebuttals for or dismiss the arguments of either prominent proponents or opponents in the debate, unless they are quite common rebuttals and the argument space is balanced in any case. Nor should it seek to present any particular point of view as the accepted factual one at the presumed expense of other points of view.

In short we hope that the article will be pleasant to read, describing the issue in a compelling and accurate way as per CZ guidelines and not seek to enter the debate itself or rebutt every point that is made on either side of the debate. This sort of thing makes encyclopaedia articles extremely unpleasant to read.

Please also see the section below on things to possibly include in the article if you are thinking about contributing.

Typographical and other conventions

"quotes" for reported speech, 'emphasis' for emphasis???? .David Tribe 06:22, 26 February 2007 (CST)

Capitalisation?

(moved from later in the talk page) Bleh, does someone know how to capitalise Intelligent Design correctly in this article. Should there be a distinction between the movement and the theory? Should it just be capitalised throughout? Also what about the Theory of Evolution by Natural selection. Is that the correct capitalisation? William Hart 04:57, 17 February 2007 (CST)

Intelligent Design : A better intro than WP

I've added an introduction to this subject. The corresponding Wikipedia page has been the cause of bitter disputes and allegations of heavy bias to the point that the article is now protected and can only be edited by regular wikipedians. If Citizendium is to succeed where Wikipedia has failed, I am guessing this will be an interesting test case.

Some suggestions as to why Wikipedia might have had so much trouble with this article:

• It quotes the opinions of individuals in order to make various points in a narrative style article. This is dangerous since almost anything anyone wants to say has been said by *someone* regarding ID, thus quoting those opinions can be a way of adding legitimacy to a personal argument about the issue. In other words, some of the opinons quoted may be prone to encouraging or entertaining the debate, rather than informing readers.
• The article errs on the side of conflating creationism and ID, however the article should try to elucidate the distinction between the two concepts.
• The article conflates the personal beliefs of many of the leading proponents and the actual statements that constitute the theory of intelligent design itself. In general there is a poor distinction in the article between the ID movement as a cultural phenomenon and intelligent design framed as a scientific argument.
• A number of quotations appear to be used to give the impression that something which is not factual, is true. For example the statement that no scientific evidence supporting ID has been published in peer reviewed literature is very carefully worded, but quite misleading. An important case of an article which passed peer review but was later rejected amidst accusations of editorial misconduct (which the editor denies), does not appear to be mentioned.
• Statistics are used rather wildly, for example a poorly constructed poll is admitted to evidence, and a statement about 70,000 scientists opposing ID is in fact really about a petition signed by only 9 people who may or may not hold the same views as the members they represent in their respective organisations (not to mention people possibly belonging to more than one of the organisations).
• The article often uses phrases such as, "it is claimed that" or "proponents say that" or "so and so argues that", which is often used in the article as a literary device for advancing one side of the debate against the other. Instead of presenting the facts, the article is presented as a dialogue between opponents and proponents of the theory (which of course just degenerates into such a debate on the talk page).
• The debate is entertained by the article rather than being reported in an unempassioned way from the outside of the issue.
• Many statements in the article would be highly offensive to one side of the debate or the other, prompting more aggravation on the talk page and in edit wars within the article itself.

In summary, I believe that the article is neither neutral, nor encyclopaedic. Of course what I've added to the page on Citizendium is certainly not the latter, and quite possibly not the former either. But every article needs a starting point. In fact I think I have erred on the side of casting ID in a bad light rather than simply reporting what it is. If people agree, perhaps even more could be culled from my intro. In particular, I may not have recognized various connotations of the wording which seem to promote one side of the debate over the other. I welcome any and all changes designed to make the article more neutral. Please be kind. I'm going with the "be bold" slogan of Citizendium. William Hart 09:06, 15 February 2007 (CST)

What is the difference between ID and creationism? I don't ask for my personal information ;-) but because the article should make this clear. Mainstream monotheistic belief has it that God is the creator and therefore virtually all mainstream believers are creationists. But obviously not all of them buy into ID. --Larry Sanger 09:10, 15 February 2007 (CST)

I think that is a good point and I agree, the article should reflect that. Also on the flip side, there are occasional agnostics who support ID. So my guess is that creationism and ID are quite different concepts. I think the main distinction is that ID does not require a *supernatural* designer. The wikipedia article tries to brush this distinction aside by making comments about how an alien race or some other kind of natural designer could not have designed the universe and that the fine tuning of constants, though under the general purview of ID theory, could not have been achieved by a natural designer. The wikipedia article also puts forward the argument that a designer would be so complex as to require an intelligent designer of its own. Since I don't wish to be making a case for either side of the debate here, I won't try to analyse these notions any further, but I think it suffices to say that those arguments look like they have been added to the wikipedia article by those wishing to debunk ID rather than to present an article which simply reports the facts. As a result they dismiss, rather than describe, the major distinction between ID and creationism.

In short, I think that ID is more about detecting design in nature and arguing for it from scientific considerations (e.g. from considerations arising from a study of microbiology) rather than trying to establish the nature of the intelligent designer. In that sense, ID most certainly cannot be characterised as an argument for the existence of God as the wikipedia article begins. In other words, ID theory has nothing to do with the statement "life on earth was created by an intelligent designer" and has much more to do with the statement "design can be *detected* in nature". This is possibly the reason many Christians object to it. Though they believe in a creator God, they perhaps don't believe that the specific considerations that intelligent design theory makes point to intelligent design. Nor do they think there is any reason to expect such considerations to lead to a proof of design. Other Christians object, as I understand it, because intelligent design doesn't go far enough, and identify the designer as God.

OK. I should be adding this to the article, not the talk page. But how to add it!? The specific wording is pretty important, so as to avoid the endless arguments which have accompanied the wikipedia version. William Hart 09:44, 15 February 2007 (CST)

In order to avoid the basking such as this topic often gives rise to, I suggest adding a chapter to the article giving righ to people with different views on the topic, but and I stress but, it may not become a religious talk else this should in totality be placed under religion as being one of its proponents. Robert Tito | Talk 11:37, 15 February 2007 (CST)

I agree, there should be a section on various views on the topic. Probably even before that there should be a section on the actual content of ID theory. At present the article is pretty woolly. But for the section on views: what views should be added? Many of the views represented in the wikipedia article seem to just be personal views of people contributing to the article often supported by articles in the popular press where journalists appear to have had the same thoughts. I think when one begins to enter the debate in this way, one loses objectivity. I'd much prefer to see a section listing the primary *scientific* objections to the concept with references to peer reviewed scientific articles or statements made in reputable scientific sources by scientists opposing the concept. One could also include the primary philosophical and religious objections too. But that is only possible if someone is very familiar with the peer reviewed literature. Just making up arguments and supposing that they must be the ones that theologians or philosophers have advanced against it and then trying to find a quote somewhere, anywhere, where someone has stated that point of view is going to make the article look quite non-authoritative in my opinion. I'm not particularly qualified to make *that* literature search, so I hope some other contributors will add that. William Hart 01:59, 16 February 2007 (CST)

Added in afterthought: the Pope would be such a qualified theologian who has made statements about the topic. BUT, this article is filed under science. Thus, as you suggest Robert, a religious discussion such as this, should not be included in the article, but rather linked to as one of the proponents/opponents of the theory (actually, having read a little of what the Pope has said on the issue, I'm still not sure of what his formal opinion really is). I see now what you are saying, and I agree! This article should include only statements from the scientific community with a short additional section reflecting the other (non-science) opinions that are out there, linking to appropriate articles about such people/ideas.

Things to add to the article

Some things that could be added to the article on the science side:

• Something about Werner Gitt's writings and his response to ID.
• Something about Paul Davies' writings.
• Stephen J Gould's opinion.
• Simon Conway Morris' opinion.
• Dembski's explanatory filter.
• Behe's Irreducible Complexity argument (there's a hint in the WP article that this has been refuted in the scientific literature and that even Behe has backed away from it. But there are so few actual details given that one is hard pressed to see clearly what has happened to this argument. I'd like to see the issue properly exposed if there is something to say.)
• Dembski's specified complexity and universal probability bound.
• Guillermo Gonzales' (?) fine tuned universe.
• The no free lunch theorem and Dembski's evolutionary search spaces and pairwise competitive functions.
• The opinions of Hubert Yockey, Robert Sauer, Peter Rüst, Paul Erbrich, Siegfried Scherer, and Douglas Axe

I can't think of any more for now, but there are many important things that should be mentioned on both sides of the scientific debate. William Hart 01:59, 16 February 2007 (CST)

Good luck. I'd strongly agree that, having made the distinction between ID and creationism, the article should steer clear of religious issues as best it can, and especially avoid the insidious practice of disparaging opinions by implying that they reflect religious (ie presumed irrational beliefs).

Personally I think the article needs to begin with a clear and simple account of the case for ID, and perhaps Paley's watchmaker analogy is a good and classic way to begin?

I am really nervous about arguments from authority, i.e. to the effect that this is rubbish because all sensible people (or all very clever people) think its rubbish. I think it must be an objective to explain the reasoning behind people's views, and then sensible people can make their own minds up. Gareth Leng 05:20, 16 February 2007 (CST)

Hi Gareth, yes I agree with your sentiments. I notice in your edits that you use the phrase "intelligent creator" a couple of times. I'd be wary of using the precise word "creator". Although I understand the sense in which you have used it, from the context, I'm uncertain whether it is the best word. Having said that, I don't have a recommendation for an alternative. William Hart 07:08, 16 February 2007 (CST)

Some problems to address

I note we have the following problems with the article (for which I don't seem to have a solution at present):

* The overview section makes mention of intelligent design being objected to as unscientific, a point which is made again fairly soon after. Is there a way to rationalize and avoid duplication without affecting the flow of thought of the article.

* The fellows of the Discovery Institute are mentioned before the Discovery Institute is put in context. Is there a way to rearrange the article to avoid this.

* The comment about ID being akin to the teleological argument has disappeared as has the precise distinction between the two. Simon Conway Morris for example believes that design is evident in nature, but rejects intelligent design theory. He would use arguments from evolutionary theory, such as the ubiquity of convergent evolution. I think the watchmaker analogy is a good starting point, but then we need to distinguish the two arguments.

* The summary of the teleological argument should be added to an article on the teleological argument. I think such a summary is also perhaps welcome here in abbreviated form, as a general introduction to intelligent design (or that topic should be expanded in the article on the teleological argument). William Hart 07:08, 16 February 2007 (CST)

Please restore or edit in any way you think is appropriate. I was just trying to present the argument for ID in a simple, clear and rational way at the beginning, rather than assume that the reader already understood what it was.Gareth Leng 07:27, 16 February 2007 (CST)

No your additions are good, since they accord well with the CZ policy of having compelling prose rather than a list of random facts. I don't have a suggestion for how to improve it, only questions about how we can make it better. I'll leave it for now (until I have a brainwave at least or someone (else) has a go at editing it). William Hart 07:31, 16 February 2007 (CST)

Some brief comments

At the moment I have no close analysis to offer except a causual reading of the text and an observation the flow is carefully neutral and measured so far. It will be interesting to see the structure of the concluding sections.

The way Popper is quoted seems to amount to arguing from authority, and although I am a personal fan of Popper, the key scientific issues for this are elsewhere. A key issue that comes to mind is whether ID hypotheses survive rigorous scrutiny, not what Popper thinks of other matters. David Tribe 06:49, 17 February 2007 (CST)

I would agree with the comments about Popper. I haven't personally reverted them or tried to change them, but if you feel they should be changed then please do so. William Hart 07:30, 17 February 2007 (CST)

Whilst I have attempted to get the article underway, I believe CZ has a policy of no one person owning or being responsible for an article. So I would have no more right to control the article than any other contributor. Actually, I think Gareth may be responsible for more of it on a word by word basis than myself, and I recall he has relevant credentials. I should mention that I am not personally committed to seeing this article through to a final version. I am merely interested in making a start which I believe is relatively neutral and seeing what happens to it after that, i.e. it is an experiment of sorts. William Hart 07:30, 17 February 2007 (CST)

Oh I see. I understand the direction better. It reads exactly like that. Please forgive my slightly more than gentle probing- but different kind of viewpoints have to meet somewhere. Some person previously (it doesn't matter whom) had mode a remark that "next CZ will have ID articles" and I though well why not. Its a good test of neutrality. By the same token their construction needs to be intensely and fairly scrutinized. Because they will cerataily get criticised by more hostile critivcs than myself if they are approved. We did something "unconventional on Biology and its attracted unfair criticism elsewhere through misunderstanding of our editorial decisions, and there is far more scope for that kind of trouble in ID. Thats on my mind, but I will also defend your neutral treatment of ID. David Tribe 08:14, 17 February 2007 (CST)

That's quite interesting because the final article on biology reads beautifully. I read it yesterday and it certainly raised my hopes for CZ. I wonder if the ID article can ever be substantive enough to be that well-written and interesting. But I hope that gifted contributors will push it towards that ideal. We certainly need a statement of the main arguments of ID and statements of the principal scientific objections to ID. William Hart 09:25, 17 February 2007 (CST)

I think it would be useful to mention genetic algorithms are being used in computing to achieve intelligent solutions, and the merits of selection from variability as a mechanism for providing functional apparent design. Eg the alternative hypothesis can be sensitively presented. The design of the bacterial flagellum of course is a particular ID case study, and EVOwiki is one place to go to find the counter position David Tribe 07:15, 17 February 2007 (CST)

I don't know all that much about (recent) genetic algorithms. Do you have references for genetic algorithms which came up with irreducibly complex designs without unrealistic design constraints being imposed on the system? If so, and if this has been advanced as an argument against ID by its opponents, I think it would be an excellent thing to add to the article. William Hart 07:30, 17 February 2007 (CST)

For the moment I don't think they are applied to "irreducibly complex designs". But the words trigger the idea that they are a tautology. The whole point is are the functional features "irreducibly complex" or not? Thanks for the encouragement to participate David Tribe 08:08, 17 February 2007 (CST)

Ha! Yeah, I should have put designs in inverted commas, or used the phrase "apparently irreducibly complex designs". Naturally that is subjective, but if someone important or qualified has stated that they do have the same appearance of being irreducibly complex as say the flagellum, then that would make them pretty relevant. I suppose one could test whether these designs were irreducibly complex simply by removing each component and checking that it ceases to function. I haven't kept up with the debate for about the last 6 months, so I don't know if such a thing has been done. At any rate I perceive that you are arguing that such "designs" are evidence irrespective of whether they are irreducibly complex. An interesting question: at what point do we consider such algorithms to be intelligently designed as opposed to random and purposeless, and when do we consider the algorithms themselves to be artificially intelligent? I guess that is not an issue the article, as a summary, wants to delve into in detail. William Hart 08:31, 17 February 2007 (CST)

Workgroups

Any idea which workgroups should be added to this article? Chris Day (Talk) 16:22, 18 February 2007 (CST)

Think it should be Biology?Gareth Leng 17:50, 21 February 2007 (CST)

I was thinking in addition to biology. It seems to have more breadth than biology alone, but whther there is a workgroup that caters to this I am not sure? Possibly philosophy too? Chris Day (Talk) 17:57, 21 February 2007 (CST)

Any science and related; any humanities and related. This is just one of those kinds of articles. Stephen Ewen 13:50, 22 February 2007 (CST)

I'm not sure about philosophy. Certainly the teleological argument belongs under that, however, is intelligent design an important issue for philosophers? I don't know, I'm not a philosopher. But I suspect it has far more to do with cosmology, physics, biochemistry, biology, mathematics, religion and current social issues. William Hart 09:55, 23 February 2007 (CST)

It belongs under Religion. It has nothing to do with science. Neville English | Talk 17:28, 22 February 2007 (CST)

What then of scientists who are IDers? Stephen Ewen 18:21, 22 February 2007 (CST)

There's nothing stopping scientists having interests in religeous matters. Neville English | Talk 06:25, 23 February 2007 (CST)

I don't see how a discussion for example of whether the bacterial flagellum reduces via a series of genetic steps to other functional related biological features would be appropriate in an article on religion. That appears to be a wholly biological issue and one which bears directly upon the question of whether irreducibly complex designs exist in biology. Irreducible complexity is a fundamental argument of ID proponents. The other principal arguments seem similarly related to scientific considerations, not religious ones. It has been suggested that a separate article be started to discuss the religious reaction to ID and the religious implications of ID theory and that the current article should be confined wholly to the *scientific* issues/objections. Granted the article does not currently deal with the principal arguments made from scientific considerations, nor the scientific objections to those arguments, but as the discussion above indicates, there are plans to include this information. Basically, you'll observe that it is scientists (biologists and a mathematician) who have been contributing to this article. It should remain under science. Leaving it there does not legitimize the scientific programme of Intelligent Design advocates any more than discussing the Bible in McDonald's makes the Pope a hamburger. William Hart 09:54, 23 February 2007 (CST)

I spent a couple of years on the ARN boards. There were no proposals that came anywhere near being science. For that to happen, you actual need to come up with a hypothesis that has some explanatory power; then formulate a repeatable experiment to demonstrate the hypothesis; and then specify the conditions which would disprove the hypothesis. None of this was forthcoming. One chap using the ID 'Mike Gene' seemed to be taking the idea seriously, although he never came out and said he was an IDer as such (as far as I remember). Most of the other 'IDers' were talking about human and dinosaur footprints on the same bedding plane and trying to demonstrate points using the 2nd law of thermodynamics (but failing to understand that you need a closed system for that to have explanatory power). No-one, but no-one, was talking about how the discovery of life on another planet, or in another solar system, would demonstrate 'design' of life on Earth if the DNA matched, or any other testable story. It was all attempts at disproof of existing theories or hypotheses, and in most instances the existing theory was identified as being 'the Theory of Evolution by means of Natural Selection'. However many times it was repeated that that theory was 150 years old, and that the target for 'ID theories' needed to be any of the thousand upon thousand of component theories and hypotheses that constitute the Modern Evolutionary Synthesis, it always seemed to come back to Darwin, and his ideas. These people were just living in the past, and completely failing to exploit the potential of ideas like panspermia. I'm sorry, but ID is just religion. The people behind it are even betraying their Christian backgrounds by being deceitful in their presentation. I tried to stimulate discussion at one point by setting out criteria through which different 'types' of ID could be identified, such that any scientific investigation could be focused on identifying the stronger and weaker candidates. No-one was in the slightest bit interested: they were all bent on the negative of pulling down 'Darwinism'. ID is just religion. Neville English | Talk 18:25, 23 February 2007 (CST)

I agree, nothing I've ever seen on ARN comes remotely close to testing a hypothesis with explanatory power. You have to talk to younger researchers if you want concrete proposals. I also agree that many of the people serious about ID will not identify themselves as ID'ers. Younger researchers don't tend to hang around places like ARN. And, many of the ideas I've heard have come from people quite committed to evolution. They merely think it can't explain all features of nature and that some features are better explained by an intelligent designer. But they don't doubt the explanatory power of evolution. Invitation only boards, blogs, tearooms and private email lists are better places to inhabit. William Hart 08:15, 24 February 2007 (CST)

As ID addresses issues of Biology and presents a challenge to Darwinism, I think it is wholly appropriate that this article should be overseen by the Biology workgroup. This article also presents a challenge to Citizendium neutrality. My view is that the motives of those who promote ID should be disregarded, they are irrelevant to the intellectual merits of ID as a theory, and the way to handle this neutrally is to characterise the ID position as clearly and as effectively it is possible to do while being academically honest and rigorous. My view is that to disparage any argument by denigrating the motives, or for that matter the competence honesty or intellect of those who promote, it intellectually dishonourable. If the arguments are unsound, and I think that they are, then make the arguments as strong as they can be and then display their weaknesses; to do less is to attack a straw man, which might make good rhetoric but not good scholarship. The issues raised by ID have been raised many times in many circumstances that, because they were not associated with creationism, did not arouse such venom. Hoyle and Wickramsingh for example promoted the theory that life had an extraterrestrial origin, and did so because of the issue at the heart of ID, the gap in our understanding of the origins of the vast complexity that appears to be needed for the most minimal known living system. This is a gap in our understanding, and not to acknowledge it would be dishonest, but to acknowledge imperfection in our understanding, with some humility, is not to surrender the path of reason to superstition. I give no more credence to the Hoyle view than to ID, but to disguise the anomalies that motivated it does science no service. I agree with Stephen that tracing the roots of the idea should be a part of this article. I would however disagree with him in that modern conceptions of ID are what will bring readers to this article, so not to make current notions the focus might obscure the issues and confuse the reader. Gareth Leng 06:01, 25 February 2007 (CST)

Argh! 'Darwinism' is pretty much meaningless in the context of biology. ID is contrapuntal to the modern evolutionary synthesis. What you seem to be talking about is a mixture of the two fields of biogenesis and abiogenesis. I'm sure that you could get a competent CZ biology workgroup editor to review those two topics, but any self respecting biologist wouldn't touch Intelligent Design with a bargepole. You'd be better of classifying it under philosophy of science, where a detached academic viewpoint could be achievable. Neville English | Talk 07:31, 25 February 2007 (CST)

I don't believe there is a philosophy of science workgroup. On the other hand, the biology workgroup is quite active, and doing an excellent job. They have also contributed to the article. I think you are underestimating the willingness of biologists to contribute to this topic. There is a distinction between writing decent articles and agreeing with the subjects of those articles. And if we can't find any self-respecting biology editors to touch the ID article, well we'll just have to find some without self-repsect. :-) William Hart 11:38, 26 February 2007 (CST)

I personally agree that the Biology group should have oversight. You've also persuaded me that the focus should stay on the modern theory of intelligent design. However we definitely need to broaden the article. What I had in mind was simply to insert terminology like "the modern version of the theory", or 'the recent movement", etc, when talking about Discovery Institute Intelligent Design as opposed to the various arguments that existed before the modern era. By simply acknowledging that the Behe/Dembski/Wells arguments are only a modern incarnation of an old idea we allow ourselves scope to expand the article without taking the focus completely off the modern debate. So I guess what I am suggesting is that the article see some rewording before we launch into describing the modern arguments and their weaknesses. I really don't want to see a WP type article where very weak versions of the principal arguments are presented, then knocked down with unscholarly rebuttal and then have the whole thing spill over into a debate on the talk page. One way to possibly diffuse some of the tension is to make the point that even if ID arguments are not strong, this does not imply that there wasn't an intelligent designer. Science may just be incapable of detecting this. By acknowledging frankly the gaps in our knowledge of the first cellular organisms we acknowledge that answering the question is currently at least partially beyond science. Berlinski has a very nice article on this issue. At every moment you expect him to say, "but there are all these problems with the current scientific proposals for the origin of life and therefore design is the better alternative", but he genuinely seems interested in exploring as far as science can take him, making the scientific case as best he can, then simply makes the gaps in our understanding clear. He never seems to use the word "but". I think this would be a good model (regardless of how well Berlinski manages it) for an article on intelligent design. Take the concept as far as it can go, lay bare its weaknesses and never use the word but. William Hart 06:47, 25 February 2007 (CST)

Any attempt to comment on the history of thought about the origin of life on Earth should be in an article so-titled, otherwise we just run straight into the problem that the phrase has become co-opted by the ID movement. The ID movement pretty much "owns" the phrase in modern parlance, and so trying to redefine it 'back' to a more general understanding runs the distinct risk of anything written in this article being 'original thought', and not encyclopaedic commentary of the phrase as it is currently used. Neville English | Talk 07:31, 25 February 2007 (CST)

I've never heard this before. I don't think ID owns that phrase. This article would not try to give a history of that subject, but would give a history of the design question as it relates to that subject. That is proper and right for an article such as this. William Hart 11:38, 26 February 2007 (CST)

"Intelligent design is not the same as creationism"

This statement, made as a bald fact, is deeply problematic. It's basically stating Discovery Institute propaganda as if it were true. Ruse, Pennock, Forrest and other philosophers of science have clearly called it creationist...enough so that the judge in the Kitzmiller trial ruled that it was religious and could not be taught as science.

ID was specifically designed to circumvent the Edwards ruling (that "creation science" was religious can could not be taught as science). To that end, it has been kept intentionally vague. While not all of its proponents are Young-Earth Creationists (there are even a few non-Christians), it's leading proponents have generally used explicitly religious terminology (like Dembski's characterisation of it as the Logos of John restated in terms on information theory (or something like that)) when addressing "friendly" audiences. In addition, you can be a creationist without specifically identifying the creator.

In the same section, the statement is made that very few ID research papers and monographs have passed peer review and made it to publication, underscoring the contentious nature of the issue amongst mainstream scientists. This is more ID propaganda. Despite having their own "peer reviewed" journal and various other friendly outlets, there is no evidence of research which seeks to support ID. There have been some attempts to point out "flaws" in the modern synthesis (or "Darwinism", as they tend to call it)...apart from the fact that most of these "flaws" are easily explained, the simple fact is that these things can only be taken to "support" of ID if the only options were existing theories or ID. Obviously, if you were to show that something cannot be explained by existing theories (as Behe has tried, and failed, with his anecdotes of "irreducible complexity"), all you are doing is demonstrating "not A", you are not showing that "B" is true. The Templeton Foundation, who provided a lot of early funding to the ID movement, offered grants for research into ID. There were no takers...because ID is not science, it's creationism counched in the language and forms of science. Ian Ramjohn 10:29, 23 February 2007 (CST)

ID does not attempt to identify the designer, nor does it attempt to establish the veracity of a particular narrative, as creationism does. One needs to separate carefully the personal beliefs, the agenda and the scientific programme of ID proponents. This article is only about the latter. If one takes the definition of intelligent design as given in the article, it is formally different to creationism. You want the article to say that ID proponents have a creationist *agenda*. This article on the other hand is about the scientific question of whether design can or has been detected in nature. The agenda of ID proponents and the academic questions raised by ID theory are two separate things, and I don't believe conflating them is a useful approach in an article designed to explain both sides of an issue which specifically sets out to divorce these two ideas. I also believe the article makes *abundantly* clear the controversy over whether the motivations of the leading advocates of ID are creationist or not. The article should be taken as a whole, because almost any single sentence, isolated and unnuanced can be taken as being overtly anti- or pro- ID.

As to your contention that there were no takers for the Templeton grants, you haven't demonstrated that it was because ID is not science, you have simply made the assertion, and as it begs the question, it isn't really admissible as evidence in your argument regarding ID publications. As for ID papers and monographs which are peer reviewed, you can't argue that they don't exist simply because they only show that the consensus view is flawed. If your contention is correct, then there are publications which have been accepted through the peer review process which argue that the concensus view is wanting. You assert that the problems are easily explained, but then you are saying that the peer review process was faulty, i.e. that the peer reviewer accepted an article when he or she should not have. If that is the case, then it is irrelevant whether ID theorists have published peer reviewed articles or not, since the process is faulty.

At any rate, the article currently makes very clear the fact that these publications contain "eliminative inference" as opposed to "positive evidence". I don't believe a neutral article can possibly hope to do more than that. Simply stating (as WP does) that there have been no peer reviewed publications, etc, leaves one with the impression that no Intelligent Design advocates have had publications pass peer review which were motivated by or related to their programme. As far as I can tell, this appears to be nothing more than an attempt to minimise ID, i.e. it is not neutral. This article attempts to point out that such publications exist, but that they do not provide positive evidence for ID. This appears to be uncontroversial and thus, neutral. Perhaps the wording can be refined to reflect this but the basic content of the statement is correct. That minimises ID quite enough without trying to be deceptive.

Arguing that they have had articles peer reviewed in their own journals or in friendly publications seems irrelevant to me. I think the same could be said of X concensus publications, where X is as big as you want it to be. Do we then decide all such publications supportive of the concensus view are irrelevant and do not contain valid science?

Essentially what I am saying is this article is devoted to the presentation of the scientific arguments made by Intelligent Design advocates and the rebuttals on academic grounds to those arguments. Most of the other wrangling is just debating tactics and irrelevant to the intellectual merits of arguments on either side of the debate. It is already an argument from authority to say that no ID articles exist which have passed peer review, let alone does it have any bearing on the intrinsic intellectual merits of the ID arguments. William Hart 11:47, 23 February 2007 (CST)

I'd like to add the following to the article: "On 4 August 2004, an article by Stephen Meyer, an Intelligent Design proponent, appeared in the peer-reviewed Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, questioning conventional evolutionary explanations for the Cambrian Explosion and proposing Intelligent Design as an alternative. However the Council of the Biological Society of Washington later retracted the article. The managing editor for the journal at the time, the process structuralist Richard Sternberg alleged that the article had been properly peer reviewed by three qualified referees and that, subsequent to its publication, attempts were made to make his position at the Smithsonian Institution untenable, including limitations on his access to specimens, extra reporting requirements, replacement of his supervisor, being deprived of office space and attempts to force the National Institute of Health (NIH) to fire him.

These allegations were supported in preliminary findings of the Office of Special Counsel. The investigation of his complaint was not concluded because the Smithsonian Institution declined to cooperate further in the matter, indicating that they would legally challenge the jurisdictional authority of the OSC on the basis that Sternberg was not legally an employee of the Smithsonian Institute but officially employed by the NIH.

Any action against Sternberg based on an investigation of his religious or political affiliations could constitute a violation of his first-ammendment rights. The OSC was not permitted to conduct interviews to see whether such an investigation had taken place, but they did make a statement to the effect that there was a religious and political component to the actions taken by Smithsonian Institute employees.

This example illustrates the contentious nature of the Intelligent Design issue amongst mainstream scientists. Proponents of Intelligent Design allege that the scientific establishment is making it impossible for peer reviewed publications on Intelligent Design to emerge, whilst many qualified scientists argue that Intelligent Design is a form of creationism without scientific merit and that the scientific establishment is under attack from those with a creationist agenda."

If this information is correct, (and other potentially more damaging information in the report from the OSC), then this article could not even hope to be neutral if it did not at least allude to the fact that few ID papers have emerged because of the contentious nature of the issue amongst mainstream scientists. Frankly, I think it is perfectly factual to make the claim, let alone allude to it. Nonetheless, I have removed the allusion from the article, since I think it constitutes the brunt of your criticism of its wording. I toyed with adding the above information in its place. But I think it is too argumentative. William Hart 14:23, 23 February 2007 (CST)

The concept of ID among scientists existed well before any of the political wrangling that Ian mentions! Stephen Ewen 15:43, 23 February 2007 (CST)

I would like to see the article include such information. But some of the very people who have made the design inference have spoken out about the Intelligent Design movement and do not want to be associated with it. The term has become dirty for intellectuals. The words, "career suicide" follow shortly after the words, "Intelligent Design". Basically the article needs to rise well above the political debate and the narrow focus it currently has before it can begin to discuss the concept of intelligent design in the scientific establishment before the modern movement began. William Hart 17:55, 23 February 2007 (CST)

It can't however, seen the experiences, be a scientific debate, simply by the all to evident lack of science by the defenders of ID. So what kind of debate do you want then? That debate then seems all to easy be some game of yes-no without any arguments either beinf brought upfront or being debated as such. Robert Tito | Talk 18:34, 23 February 2007 (CST)

In point of fact, conceptions of Intelligent Design began from at least Plato and Socrates. I would argue it began much before then. Intelligent Design as a contemporary debate should be only one section of this article, not its prime focus. Stephen Ewen 19:31, 23 February 2007 (CST)

I agree with this comment, ID is much more than the contempory version. I see it primarily as a philosophical debate, however, it would be naive not to acknowledge that religion and biology workgroups also have some overlap with this topic. Ironically we seem to have scientists saying "this is not science" and theologians (creationists for sure) saying "this is not religion". This is true but does not mean the debate has not spilled into those spheres, therefore, I suggest all three workgroups be included ((philosophy, religion and biology). If we restrict it to one group then the most logical home is philosophy. Chris Day (Talk) 12:12, 26 February 2007 (CST)

I was just suggesting, above, that there are in fact two concepts involved here, creationism and intelligent design, and they carry different baggage. It might or might not be the case that all intelligent design is a variety of creationism, but it is certainly the case that one can be a creationist without buying into the purportedly scientific claims of ID. That's not unlike the way you can be a theist without buying into the traditional arguments for God's existence. --Larry Sanger 12:20, 26 February 2007 (CST)

By the way, regardless of whether the doctrine of ID entails the doctrine of creationism, surely it is both important and not controversial to say that, probably, proponents of ID are in fact creationists. --Larry Sanger 12:47, 26 February 2007 (CST)

I don't concur on this point. Berlinski would certainly be very unhappy to be called a creationist. Then again, I am not totally certain that he actually identifies himself as an ID'er, even though he writes for the DI. I think it is probably fair to say that most people committed to the existence of an intelligent designer are probably creationists. But to say that all ID proponents are I think is untrue. Sorry, I don't mean to split hairs at all, but actually I think this is an important point. William Hart 06:38, 27 February 2007 (CST)

Magisterial Chris. Happy to concur. On Rob's point, I think the weaknesses in our understanding that ID exploits are clear enough, and I don't see why explaining these should be controversial. The weaknesses of the ID answer are also clear enough and aren't seriously in dispute - the main weakness being that there is no offered mechanistic explanation of "the Designer", so as an alternative explanation it simply replaces gaps with other gaps. The issue that is controversial (or not) is whether the gaps in our knowledge justify giving curriculum time to an explanation generally thought inadequate except by some of those whose belief in a Creator allows them to regard the ID explanation as adequate. Whatever we think of ID though, the weaknesses in our own understanding remain. The issue of irreducible complexity is an interesting one, and can be seen as a fair challenge to current theories - and indeed has been seen as a fair challenge. William's points are I think absolutely relevant and important to include in some form.Gareth Leng 12:36, 26 February 2007 (CST)

Hi Gareth, I agree with most of what you say here, but I do not agree that it is a weakness of ID that there is no mechanistic explanation of the designer. Although ID does not identify the designer, it does not rule out a supernatural one defying mechanistic description. What I would agree with you on however is that ID leads to a situation where there may be less *potential* for a mechanistic explanation of life or the universe, i.e. if it became the concensus view in science, it may be a rather worthless scientific theory on account of it not seeking further mechanistic explanations where science may otherwise have kept looking. Some have argued that science must of necessity be systematically committed to materialism and simply refrain from commenting on that which lies outside its scope to explain (something which unfortunately never happens in practice), i.e. keep looking for a mechanistic explanation for everything and simply admit when one doesn't currently exist. I personally think that the biggest deficit in ID theory is that not a single one of its propositions has been demonstrated with any certainty and even a few of the pieces of evidence drawn in support of ID have proved otherwise on close inspection. This in my opinion is why leading ID advocates don't want it taught in schools, they only want the weaknesses in the concensus view taught. William Hart 06:38, 27 February 2007 (CST)

On the issue Gareth and Chris are discussing here--we need to get Peter King to comment--but I would say that philosophers per se care very little about ID, except in two connections: (1) if ID is construed as necessarily a kind of creationism, so that the argument from design becomes an argument for ID, and (2) the question as to the scientific or religious status of ID--which is something that needs to be discussed in the article itself, and not assumed, as it is one of the most important and interesting questions about the topic itself. --Larry Sanger 12:51, 26 February 2007 (CST)

I do think this article is a very clear instance where it should fall under the purveyance of two or more Workgroups, at least Astronomy, Biology, Religion, and perhaps Philosophy and Physics. Also, I have invited Dr. Bernard Haisch here to offer commentary. Stephen Ewen 19:10, 26 February 2007 (CST)

Probably most if not all intelligent design proponents are also creationists

This statement can be demonstrated to be false, so I believe it should be altered slightly or removed from the article. Berlinski was at one point, as far as I can tell, an intelligent design advocate and never a creationist. He is now not pro-ID and only anti-Darwinian, but it is possible to find debates for which he held the pro-ID position. Also the Raelians are Intelligent Design proponents (though not as far as I know qualified academically) and are certainly not creationists. This is not something that has been imputed to them, but is their official position, i.e. they explicitly state that they are ID proponents and that many are atheists and not creationists. There are also various deists (as opposed to theists) who suppose that the Universe has some kind of emergent intelligence and that life on earth is a product of that intelligence. I've also read essays by very qualified biologists who believe that the genome is a computer with emergent intelligence (they make quite cogent arguments for this). Thus there are many groups of people who may be considered to be ID proponents (whether they align themselves with the ID movement or not), but who are most certainly not creationists. One of the things that happens is that Christian ID proponents get a lot of press, because of the charged religious atmosphere in the US. Thus we only ever hear about the creationists who are ID'ers. I think it would be a shame to include a statement such as the above in this article and to not include the other information. I'm perfectly happy for the article to read "Probably the majority of intelligent design proponents are also creationists", but I would certainly like the other information to be added somewhere in the article to nuance this. I also question the usefulness of such a statement in the first place. We might consider the effect on readers with a deep seated hatred of religion, that such a statement has. My personal feeling is that to make too strong a statement about the link between ID and creationism is to bias the article by playing to the predispositions of a large segment of its readers. Also, as a general rule, I think it is unwise to make strong statements about no one holding a particular view, because for every possible opinion, no matter how apparently illogical or ridiculous, there is a proponent *somewhere* who makes a reasoned (though probably wrong) argument which advocates precisely that view. Such people may very well hold degrees in relevant disciplines. William Hart 09:11, 27 February 2007 (CST)