Talk:North Macedonia

I have reverted the abbreviation to fYRoM because this is legally correct. The uppercase version is journalistic. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 15:27, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The common use is FYROM, not fYRoM (really, it's the very first time I see fYRoM). You can't ignore the traditional use of typography in acronyms. No 'legally correct' setting of lowercase and uppercase has ever existed (trust the linguist). In any case, I won't struggle for such a tidbit.--Domergue Sumien 21:58, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I assure you that the formal abbreviation used in all official documents is fYRoM. I much prefer this anyway, because it emphasises the temporariness (and ridiculousness) of the name: for the same reason, Greeks tend to use FYROM because this looks more permanent. I agree that the press tends to use uppercase only, but when did they ever get anything right? Martin Baldwin-Edwards 22:19, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

A footnote to that effect would be in order: I too had only ever seen the awful FYROM. Ro Thorpe 22:41, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

If one wants to be extraordinarily correct, one might note that the UN alphabetizes the name of this member nation under "T" -- for "the former [etc.]," so perhaps it should be "tfYRoM". The UN doesn't call the United States "THE United States," or the UK "THE United Kingdom, but -- interpret it as you will -- does call tfYRoM "THE". Bruce M.Tindall 03:02, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you're right, Bruce. I have no idea why, except that perhaps nobody is happy with this arrangement for the temporary name. So, in full it is "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" and the usual abbrevation is fYRoM. The reason for the lower case is simply that it reflects the historical legal name of "Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" whereas the word "former" has no legal basis. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 10:05, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Writing an acronym in all-uppercase (i.e. FYROM instead of fYRoM) is not an error from the press, it's nothing but the common, traditional and simple way of writing acronyms. Maybe someone could check this rule in the Chicago Manual of Style? I totally agree that FYROM is a ridiculous name, but it's another question.--Domergue Sumien 13:38, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with common style, and the opinions of linguists are not relevant. Kindly accept my expert advice that fYRoM is the correct abbreviation, although it is rarely used. I have never seen tfYRoM used, though... Martin Baldwin-Edwards 15:52, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Once again: I'm not struggling for this tidbit and I'll let you write 'fYRoM' as much as you want. But what's the topic? The way one handles abbreviations is a matter of style and, in a broader sense, of grammar and linguistics (I may answer: "kindly accept my expert advice in linguistics" :-)). Your expert advice concerns international institutions, it's OK, but the UN have never ruled typography. Even the UN can use a wrong typography. Typography is ruled in Citizendium by the Chicago Manual of Style.--Domergue Sumien 18:53, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Domergue: style on CZ in this sort of matter is set by the subject editors, not by the Chicago Manual. There is a general principle here, which you should be aware of. Thanks for appreciating this. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 20:03, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

As you can see, I want to apply the rules and I do respect them. You can't blame me. The only CZ page I found concerning style is CZ:Article Mechanics Complete#Grammar, spelling, punctuation, and usage. Where can I find your 'general principle'?--Domergue Sumien 07:14, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

There is no blame being attached, here. I just wanted to explain to you that the Chicago Manual of Style does not rule CZ: even if the Editorial Council had accepted that as the main guidance on style (which it has not), the subject workgroup editors have autonomy (within reason). The reference for that is here: CZ:Editorial_Council_Resolution_0011 . There is no absolute set of rules, so you need to listen to the advice of editors on these issues: we rarely intervene anyway, but in this case I decided to do so in my editorial capacity. This is because this article is potentially very inflammatory for Greeks and/or others, and must be handled very carefully. Sorry if you are irritated by this...Martin Baldwin-Edwards 12:40, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

All right, thank you. It would be useful to mention the CZ:Editorial_Council_Resolution_0011 in CZ:Article Mechanics Complete#Grammar, spelling, punctuation, and usage.--Domergue Sumien 07:50, 26 October 2008 (UTC)