Talk:Wales

The South

Is it really true, in all cases, to say that the reason that the south is more Anglicised is:

owing to the extensive exploitation of its natural resources, such as coal and gold, by the English in the 19th century.

This clearly has something to do with it, but I think it might be a bit simplistic and out-of-date to make such a blanket statement. Surely it also has to do with the economic and linguistic differences? John Stephenson 19:51, 7 November 2007 (CST)

I have changed "exploitation" to "mining" - I think the reader can infer it was exploitation. I think this is more even-handed. John Stephenson 20:10, 7 November 2007 (CST)

As a native of South Wales, I can assure you that the economic development of the region was entirely dependent upon exploitation by the English -- which developed substantial infrastructure such as railway lines and ports, but really left the region as a sort of economic "colony" for 150 years. This disappeared with deindustrialisation, starting in the 1970s with very high unemployment, now with more independent regional development.

The linguistic differences are caused by geography -- the mountain range {Brecon Beacons] separating North from South. Besides, the grammar and vocabulary of "North Welsh" are not that different from the south: the extent of its use as a native language is very different, though. This is bascially, I suppose, because North Wales was not of commercial interest to the English.

By the way, "exploitation" is a neutral word in political economy. I suppose it has some connotations in ordinary speech, which would not be entirely wrong either! --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 05:20, 9 November 2007 (CST)

Wales or Scotland?

Is this article about Wales or Scotland?! It seems like a comparative study! The first paragraph with the erroneous "regarded", "principality" and "instead" in i'm removing for the moment - the whole parag is miles off the mark. I know this isn't Wikipedia but I'm flabbergasted. This is my nationality!!!! --Matt Lewis 01:39, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

I can now see this article is entirely the product of a Write-a-Thon! Makes sense now why it was like it was - but it's made me a bit worried about Write-a-Thon's now I must say! It certainly didn't lead to this article being taken up after a few days. --Matt Lewis 17:25, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

I have reverted your edits, because I cannot see the justification for removing perfectly accurate history and language discussion from the article. On the other hand, you are welcome to rearrange material and contest the content -- preferably here, on the Talk page. I don't share your view that it is the result of a Write-a-Thon, especially as I contested or refined various issues on the page. Please express very clearly what you disagree with, and let's see where to go. From my point of view, the history of Wales's relations with England are central to understanding modern Wales, and you have simply excised them! So, let's improve the article, but not by fiat. BY the way, I am also Welsh. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 17:31, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

All the work on this article was over 3 days - starting on and then immediately after the last Write-a-Thon (7-10th Nov 2007)!! How can you contest that? It's certainly made me against Write-a-Thon's (for the same reason I was against the Core Contest on Wikipedia). So far Citizendium has been sub-impressive in my eyes - but I have to believe in it or I'll despair.

I will go through the article and list for you the many reasons why I made the edit I did. Please take me seriously. If this place turns out to be another Wikipeida I will truly despair! When I saw this article my heart sank to my shoes - it really did - to my shoes. I live and breathe in my country - why does it have to be a 'subject' to another? We only need to find the proper things to write about!

Wales is central to Wales - not England or Scotland!!! I fundamentally disagree with your above stated POV - and it is entirely your own original research, with barely a citation. I'm trying not to quote Wikipedias policy! --Matt Lewis 18:14, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

This has nothing to do with original research. Please note that we don't allow acronyms like POV on Citizendium and we do not require citations [we are not WP]. It is an indisputable fact that the history of Wales is shaped by its relations with a more powerful England: if you have not studied the history of our country so well, then I suggest you do so. The comparison with Scotland was put in by someone because it helps people from outside the UK to get a grip on things. What is wrong with that? I am not opposed to making changes to anything, and I am sure the page can be much improved, but simply deleting all the historical stuff is not the way to go... ...said Martin Baldwin-Edwards (talk) (Please sign your talk page posts by simply adding four tildes, ~~~~.)

In deciding what to put in the article, etc please imagine that you are an high-school student in, I don't know, India or the Southern US, i.e. someone who knows next to nothing about the UK. So you need to spell everything out, and assume nothing on the part of your readers. J. Noel Chiappa 21:51, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

Yes, you make an excellent point, Noel. The article has to be of value to everyone, not only those who know something about Wales.Martin Baldwin-Edwards 00:17, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

possible structure

I've tried this structure on Wikipedia (where the Wales article is currently horribly bland and pointlessly guarded with the usual "two bullying editors scaring everyone else off formula" you find over there... but anyway, I may as well follow it here if I can't over there. Wales is more famous for its geography than history, so I've began with that. I despise the formula that begins country articles with Etymology! Do we want readers?

  * Introduction
  * 1 Landscape of Wales
        o 1.1 Climate
  * 2 Travelling in Wales
        o 2.1 Welsh counties
  * 3 History
        o 3.1 Origins and history of the name
        o 3.2 Roman colonisation
        o 3.3 Medieval Wales
        o 3.4 Modern Wales
  * 4 Wildlife
        o 4.1 Flora
        o 4.2 Fauna
  * 5 Architecture
  * 6 Governance
        o 6.1 Law
        o 6.2 Economy
        o 6.3 Public health
        o 6.4 Military
        o 6.5 Demography
              + 6.5.1 Language
              + 6.5.2 Religion
  * 7 Culture
        o 7.1 Media in Wales
        o 7.2 Music and dance
        o 7.3 Literature
        o 7.4 Visual Arts
        o 7.5 Science
        o 7.6 Sports
        o 7.7 Food and drink
  * 8 Famous Welsh people
  * 9 Symbols of Wales
  * 10 Images of Wales
  * 11 See also
  * 12 References
  * 13 External links

...said Matt Lewis (talk) 17:19, 31 March 2008 (Please sign your talk page posts by simply adding four tildes, ~~~~.)

The structure is ok, although I am not sure why military issues are so prominent, The biggest problem is what to put into the Introduction, as this can only be a short summary of the most salient issues. There can be much dispute over what it should contain... Martin Baldwin-Edwards 17:49, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

Military is interesting in the UK regarding the separate nations - obviously, the army has specific links to royalty in Wales, and Wales has a number of ordinance and training grounds. I wouldn't necessarity make it all that big. --Matt Lewis 11:25, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

So did Wales win some sort of Rugby game? --D. Matt Innis 19:18, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

Looks like you guys have a lot to sing about! --D. Matt Innis 19:29, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

Over the UK, I would say that 'rugby' (success or no) and 'singers/singing' are the most synonymous words with Wales. Wales is the only UK nation which has Rugby as its national sport. --Matt Lewis 11:29, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

I'm not so sure that Wales is better known for its geography, outside the UK. Growing up in Bermuda, and living in the US at the moment, I know Wales (what little I do know of it, although I've visited there about a half-dozen times over the decades) more for its history than its geography. J. Noel Chiappa 21:54, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

Even after visiting half a dozen times? - that really surprises me. What have you picked up about Welsh history? Was it from visiting, or otherwise? I'll be posting some data on this.--Matt Lewis 11:31, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

There are a couple of alterations and additions I'd suggest to your template. Your section 1 has climate as a subsection of landscape. While both are geographic topics, one shouldn't be subjugated to the other. I'd suggest (in no special order of preference):

  * 1 Geography
        o 1.1 Landscape (your section 1)
        o 1.3 Plants and wildlife (your section 4)
        o 1.5 Geology
        o 1.6 Climate (your section 1.1)
        o 1.7 Environment

I'd like to see a section or subsection on Education and the Religion and Language sections should be more than just demographics. I think you can also put Religion and Language into Culture. The think Wales is really famous for is it's industry and mining. I think that There should be something about these topics, both in historical and contemporary settings. There should be something mentioned about Agriculture too. Derek Harkness 03:49, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

What industry is famous though? The mining is in the past - with the independent Tower colliery now closed Wales has no mines!

Agriculture I envisioned under Economy - but could have its own section (there are actually more sheep than people in Wales).--Matt Lewis 11:25, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

I guess industry could go in the history section then. The slate mines are also important in that respect. Chris Day 11:31, 1 April 2008 (CDT)