Talk:Race (social)

Article Checklist for "Race (social)"

Workgroup category or categories	History Workgroup, Anthropology Workgroup, Sociology Workgroup [Editors asked to check categories]
Article status	Stub: no more than a few sentences
Underlinked article?	Yes
Basic cleanup done?	Yes
Checklist last edited by	Frank W Sweet 11:03, 9 May 2007 (CDT)

To learn how to fill out this checklist, please see CZ:The Article Checklist.

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CZ:Neutrality Policy

This article takes a position and is thus problematic in its current form on neutrality grounds. It does throughout and builds to, "The race concept remains fruitful for the study of historical events." It is lacking discussion that the concept of "race" itself is a serious contention among biological and other anthropologists; that "race" is widely held as a mere social construct and that historically the concept of "race" developed alongside racism. And so forth. ---Stephen Ewen 13:09, 9 May 2007 (CDT)

The article shows bias, but it also just doesn't read like an article about race per se, but an essay on the interaction of race, class, and ethnicity in regard to United States government policy. --Eric Winesett 13:22, 9 May 2007 (CDT)

The article really does read like an essay, but that's not apparently the sin here that it is on Wikipedia. It's obvious that racial differences have driven historical events (try to explain the history of slavery in the U.S. without reference to race), but the article does almost nothing to explain how, or why, which would be necessary if the article is to be meaningful.

"Race" is a difficult topic to address, because it has been misused by pseudoscientists and their followers, but there is a scientific basis for the belief that there are, among humans, genetically distinct population clusters which do correspond to geographic ancestry and to popular conceptions of race. See, for example:

• http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1196372
• http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1196372
• http://genetics.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pgen.0010070

Slightly less technical explanation at http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2007/01/metric-on-space-of-genomes-and.html

An article on race should explain that the history of racism has made many people uncomfortable with examining race in a scientific manner, and that some political bodies of social scientists have made the (unsupported) assertion that "race is a purely social construct", but it should also explain that genetic science is showing that there are distinct (and distinguishable) population groups within the human species, and that these groups show patterns of variation in a variety of genetic measures, though not necessarily along the lines most racists have stereotyped. Anthony Argyriou 18:13, 9 May 2007 (CDT)

To Anthony Argyriou, Stephen Ewen, and Eric Winesett: I apologize, because the first two sentences on the page are apparently unclear.

The first sentence says, "Race in social science.... etc." This is because the intent of the page is to explain how "race" is used the social sciences. That is, to explain how term is used in the fields of history, sociology, political science, and the like. Nothing more. I plan to expand the stub, but only in that direction.

The second sentence says, "For an explanation of race in biology see bio-race." This is because my intent is that readers follow the link for an explanation of the term's usage in biology. In other words, the definition and methodological criteria for identifying the biologically synonymous concepts: "race", "breed", "variety", and "subspecies" should be located on a page under the purview of the biology workgroup. I encourage all of you to post your opinions and arguments regarding the usefulness (or not) of identifying biological races, breeds, variety, and subspecies of H. sapiens on that subspecies page or its talk page.

Alternatively, if anyone would like to use this present article page (or this talk page) to describe arguments for and against identifying biological races, breeds, variety, and subspecies of the human species (again, under the purview of the biology workgroup), I would be glad to withdraw my text and start a new page to explain how "race" is used the social sciences--that is, how term is used in the fields of history, sociology, political science, and the like. Frank W Sweet 08:01, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

It would help if the article began with a definition of race. Also useful would be (1) the social uses, i.e., classification of people by race into "good" and "inferior" (after Bacon's Rebellion?) and (2) principled objections to this classification - including scholary attempts to eliminate the concept altogether.

I hope I'm not being too pedantic in my language. I'm not really an intellectual. ;-) --Ed Poor 08:50, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

Regarding begining with a definition, the first sentence already is: "Race in social science, from the Latin for root, means a group delineated by society as sharing a common biological ancestry, clan, or lineage." This was taken, nearly verbatim, from Whitehall, Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language (Cleveland, 1959) p. 1197. Other definitions that I have found relate to biology, and I intend that the word's many changing and controversial biological usages be on a separate page. I would be grateful if you could suggest a better or more comprehensive definition that does not assume an accepted biological taxonomy.

Regarding the mistreatment or perceived inferiority of people because of their "race," this is "racism." Although I plan to introduce the concept of "racism" in this article, it will get its own article in order give it a fuller explanation. Yes, in that article, I do plan to mention the late 17th century historical origins of U.S. "racism" with focus on the world's first statute against Afro-Euro intermarriage (VA 1691) as well as that law's motive force (Bacon's Rebellion 1676). Bear in mind however, that the roots of Iberian and Hindu "racism" trace to different origins. Another reason that I want to give "racism" its own page is to compare/contrast it with colorism, ethnocentrism, and the like. Frank W Sweet 11:21, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

Defining race: I really like the definition which Steve Sailer uses: "A racial group is merely an extremely extended family that inbreeds to some extent." (He expands on it at http://www.vdare.com/Sailer/presentation.htm ) He claims that he can't find a precedent for that definition in the literature, though it seems to be useful enough that someone should have used it by now. Anthony Argyriou 11:37, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

That is why I used a dictionary definition that did not require a biological assumption. The suggestion that a racial group is merely an extremely extended family that inbreeds to some extent is valuable and well worth discussing in the proposed bio-race page. Unfortunately, it fails as a definition for socio-historical usage. It is too inclusive and it is also too exclusive. Here is why it is too inclusive. Following that very definition, the greatest craniofacial anthropometrist of the 20th century, Carelton S. Coon demonstrated the presence of over twenty races in Europe alone. Indeed, every Swiss valley was a separate race. And yet, no one would consider those inbred extended families or populations to be “races” in the socio-historical sense (in the sense of racism, slavery, Jim Crow, lynchings, civil rights, affirmative action, etc.) And here is why it is too exclusive. Some of the most famous African-Americans in U.S. history were genetically European. Walter White feared being lynched in the south if it were discovered that he was a blonde, blue-eyed, utterly Nordic-looking man who was “really Black.” Among the most dedicated African-American activists today who fight for the Black community are Gregory Williams, Adrienne Piper, and David Matthews, who have no visible African ancestry at all. No serious socio-historical account would exclude such people and thousands like them from the social definition of the “African-American race.” Indeed, based on random sampling, about five percent of the Black community have no detectable subsaharan genetic admixture and about one-third of White Americans do. There is no question, of course, that Americans rationalize their racialism as grounded in biological difference. The problem is that reality does not match rhetoric. The mismatch between counterfactual rhetoric and demonstrable reality is important and will be explained in the article, but we cannot start with a definition that falsely assumes that the counterfactual rhetoric is accurate. Frank W Sweet 19:25, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

"Race", in the context of humans, definitely does not normally mean exactly the same thing as "race" when it is applied by biologists to other organisms; i.e., it is not a synonym for subspecies. However, this does not prove that "race" is purely social concept.

The problem with beginning the article with a definition of race is ... which definition? I don't know of a widely accepted consensus definition.—Nat Krause 18:27, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

Whether “race” and “subspecies” are synonymous in biology should be discussed on the bio-race page, not here. Also, I have no intention of “proving” or “disproving” whether race is a "purely social concept.” Indeed, I would not know how to start defining the terms (proof, purely). Again, if such proving is desirable, it should be addressed on the bio-race page. This page is for “race” as a social phenomenon. No one doubts that the perception of “race” is a social phenomenon. Specifically, no one doubts that historical events can be illuminated by considering how people aligned themselves within different perceived “races.” And explaining race as a social phenomenon is my sole goal for this page.Frank W Sweet 19:25, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

Well, what is your justification for deciding that this page should be for “race” as a social phenomenon?

I did not intend to discuss whether or not the terms "race" and "subspecies" are used as synonyms by biologists; I thought they were, but it doesn't matter. My point is that this instance of jargon is irrelevant to normal use of the term "race" when discussing human variation. It's a different sense of the same word. I've never heard the expression "bio-race" before, so I can't comment on what it means; Citizendium does not have an article with this title, though—instead, this article links to subspecies.—Nat Krause 20:07, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

My justification for deciding that this page should be for “race” as a social phenomenon and not as a biological phenomenon is that I choose to write an article on the social-phenomenon aspects of the “race” notion and I choose not to write an article on the biological aspects. I would be happy explain in more detail why I choose to write about my professional specialty, rather than about something else, if you wish. There is no point in discussing this however, until the constable’s threat to delete the entire page is resolved. Frank W Sweet 01:26, 11 May 2007 (CDT)

Threatened Deletion

The article is still an essay and as such it is not allowable on Citizendium. Any constable at any time may delete it per CZ:What_Citizendium_articles_are_not. I hope this turns into an article very soon. Stephen Ewen 21:12, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

Any constable at any time may delete it? Really?

It was NOT copied from Wikipedia or some other online source (where it can now be read) over one week ago, and no one has made any substantive revisions to it then or since then, regardless of whether it was marked "CZ Live" or not;

It was NOT drafted solely by a contributor and then blanked by that contributor;

It DOES NOT consists of two sentences or less, or 50 words or less, which have been left on the wiki for more than two hours;

It IS NOT obvious and uncontroversial to virtually all constables that the article is merely an instance of self-promotion.

It NOT is primarily (and thus presumably could be entirely) the result of a copyright violation.

The only possible legitimate grounds that you could have for deleting it are (1) that it is for some reason evidently worthless, as in the case of vandalism or (2) that it would be obvious and uncontroversial to virtually all constables that it is not an encyclopedia article. If you honestly believe that one of these reasons are the case, despite its merely being a starting stub, and its not having even been examined by an editor yet, please do so immediately and save us both wasted time. Otherwise, your threat makes no sense. It certainly does not encourage me to put any more work into it or to participate in CZ. Frank W Sweet 22:19, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

Frank, please don't take my prodding too hard. It is just that an essay that advocates positions (e.g., the conclusion, "the race concept remains fruitful for the study of historical events") is not an encyclopedia article--yet. I have just been saying it needs to get moving along to not being an essay. Stephen Ewen 02:42, 11 May 2007 (CDT)

No. What you said was, "Any constable at any time may delete it per CZ:What_Citizendium_articles_are_not." Was that an accurate statement of how CZ works? Is it true that "Any constable at any time may delete it per CZ:What_Citizendium_articles_are_not"? Mr. Ewen, please do not take my concern personally. Try to understand that it would be senseless to work on something that any one of a fourteen individuals could legitimately destroy at any time without even consulting with the workgroups. If what you wrote is true, I want no part of CZ. If it is not true, I would like to hear it from Ruth Ifcher or someone else on the Executive Committee. Frank W Sweet 08:19, 11 May 2007 (CDT)

Frank, let me be real clear. I have been saying that the article in its current form appears to me as within a certain class--an essay that advances a position--that makes it deletable by constables. It seems you are taking my words to mean that constables can run around a delete whatever they want! Nothing could be further from the truth. There are only certain items on Citizendium that constables are empowered to delete on their own recognizance, per CZ:Article Deletion Policy. You can ask whoever you want whether that page exist. You might look at that list and ask yourself what it might be like at CZ if it were not so. Stephen Ewen 12:53, 11 May 2007 (CDT)

proposed revised introduction

This introduction is offered an outline of relatively non-contentious factual material about the subject of race. Almost every sentence could be expanded to multiple paragraphs. Alternatively, each paragraph could be expanded into a separate sub-article, and a two-paragraph summary left behind in this article.

-- Anthony Argyriou 22:41, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

A race is a subdivision of humans who are related to each other in a way which they are not related to other humans. The nature of the relationship is dependent on the use of the term; in popular use in the United States, the relationship is mostly about skin color and some other visible features, while geneticists use the term to refer to clusters of populations which have similar population distributions of specific genes.

It has often been claimed that "race is a social construct". Given the widely divergent definitions of "race" which have been in common and specialist use, it is true that there is some amount of arbitrariness in the definitions. The question of whether the socially-defined category of race corresponds to a biological reality is hotly disputed.

Categorizing people into different races flows naturally from the human urge to categorize and the realization that there are "people like us" and "people not like us". Historically, differences condisered to be "racial" have patterned with differences in skin color and facial features.

Broadly, the races among humans which have been recognized include the sub-Saharan African (also called Black, from their skin color), European/Caucasian (also called white), East Asian (sometimes called "yellow"), and Native American. Some racial classifications have separated southeast Asians and Pacific Islanders as a "Malay" race distinct from the East Asian group, while others have included Native Americans as a subset of East Asians. People of South Asian origin have typically been seen as "European" or "Caucasian", but often not considered "white", especially as immigrant communities in England, due to their significantly darker coloring.

Folk classifications have evolved over time, and have not always matched scientific or pseudoscientific classifications. In the mid to late 19th century in the United States, immigrants from southern and eastern Europe were not considered "white", though the distinction between europeans on the one hand and blacks on the other, and economic advancement and intermarriage between various European groups eventually led to the acceptance of most or all Europeans as "white", even if some discrimination against "Latins" persisted.

Anthropologists of the 19th century performed a great deal of research into racial classification, but absent a knowledge of genetics, many of their conclusions have not held up. However, the broad divisions into four races have been confirmed by modern genetic research.

Racial distinctions have often been a source of conflict where distinctive racial groups have settled in the same area, even when religious and linguistic differences have been minimized. In support of these conflicts, many anthropologists and pseudoscientists made claims about racial differences which have been proven untrue, or which confused the results of cultural and economic conditions with hereditary characteristics. Quite often, such claims included claims of racial "superiority", usually for the superiority of White/European people over people of other races; these claims often included claims of moral justification for racial segregation and racial discrimination.

Through the 1920s and 1930s, many countries maintained policies which aimed at "improving the race", usually referring to the politically dominant race in the country. Such policies usually forbade marriage or sexual relations between people of different races, and also often included eugenic policies to discourage persons considered "unfit" from having children. Eugenic policies reached a climax in Nazi Germany, where "pure" Germans were encouraged to have many children, people with various handicaps were forcibly sterilized or killed, and members of "lower races" were murdered by the millions.

After the defeat of the Nazis, movements to guarantee equal legal rights for members of all races gained significant ground, and led to laws and social attitudes turning against racial discrimination, and accepting of racial mixing. Explicit eugenic concerns became taboo, and most laws discouraging certain people from having children were repealed.

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That is an excellent outline, and I would be happy to work with it, once we correct the factual errors in paragraphs 1, 2, 4, and 6. There is no point in even discussing it however, until the constable’s threat to delete the entire page is resolved. Frank W Sweet 01:29, 11 May 2007 (CDT)

The topic is not at issue but the content as a biased essay has been. The above revision is clearly an article, not a biased essay. No constable would even so much as think to delete something like it. Stephen Ewen 01:48, 11 May 2007 (CDT)

Frank, I'd be interested to know what you consider the factual errors in the outline I presented.

Stephen, I think you have come down on Frank a little too hard. The article he wrote is not so much a biased essay as a essay-like article on one aspect of the subject. If it had been put up under the title Race in historical analysis (or something similar), it would be considerd a good start, if possessing some evident flaws.

Anthony Argyriou 12:24, 11 May 2007 (CDT)

Perhaps. In that case I would ask Frank for understanding that we are all learning around here. For everyone's benefit, I have asked all constables to look at this article to see if they do or do not view it as within a certain narrow class of articles, essays (and one that advances a position), which are deletable to constables on their own recognizance. Stephen Ewen 12:33, 11 May 2007 (CDT)

Hi all, Steve is right in that one of the constable's jobs is to clean out the unacceptable articles. Having said that, I don't necessarily see that this should one of them. I would say that since this article is being attended by learned authors (that should probably apply for editorships) and it is only two days old, it needs some time to develop. This doesn't have to be a contentious article if we keep it professional and be sure to work toward neutrality. Frank seems to know what he is talking about and so do others. I personally like the narrative format so I won't comment there. It might be misnamed, but that is also not my choice. Ultimately, I am looking forward to seeing what you come up with as a final product. --Matt Innis (Talk) 14:15, 11 May 2007 (CDT)

Definitions in scholarly research

Perhaps it would be wise to start with some clear definitions drawing upon academic sources. How have leading thinkers sought to define race? How have these definitions been defined and contested over time? Otherwise, it comes across as one's own reflections (aka original research) and not at a university level. I would think would be the last topic we'd want to touch if we aren't familiar with and using the current academic literature. (So maybe before definitions, perhaps just start with the resources/bibliography list.) David Hoffman 13:57, 11 May 2007 (CDT)

That seems like a good idea. I am withdrawing from CZ for obvious reasons, but I have posted a short annotated bibliography below, in case anyone is interested in serious peer-reviewed sources on the subject. Frank W Sweet 12:40, 12 May 2007 (CDT)

Much more important is how people in general have seen race, as that's what causes racial conflict, which has been a pretty important part of history. Scientific and pseudo-scientific theories of race are less important (especially the pseudo-scientific ones) except as they affected popular attitudes and historical racial conflicts. Anthony Argyriou 15:36, 11 May 2007 (CDT)

The article before blanking

Race in social science, from the Latin for root, means a group delineated by society as sharing a common biological ancestry, clan, or lineage. (For an explanation of race in biology see bio-race.)

The "race" concept is one of three fruitful ways of interpreting historical causes. Past events can become clearer when seen as the result of conflict and cooperation among competing social groups. Race is one way of dividing a society into groups for this purpose; the other two ways are by ethnicity and by class.

In contrast to class divisions, which are usually delineated by differences in power (meaning income or wealth, in capitalist societies), race is most often seen as independent of socio-economic status. In the United States for example, an African-American millionaire is seen as being of the same race as an African-American pauper, but not of the same class.

In contrast to ethnic differences, which are usually seen as voluntary, race is often considered involuntary. In the United States for example, a person of half-Irish and half-Italian ethnicity can usually choose to self-identity as Italian, Irish, both, or neither, as desired on any given day. But a U.S. resident whose ancestry is half Black and half non-Black is usually not given such a choice, but assigned to the Black race like it or not.

Although the difference between race and class is seldom debated (the exception being in disputes over race-based U.S. federal entitlements that are rhetorically justified as aimed at reducing class inequality), the difference between ethnicity and race is less sharp.

There are three reasons for the blurring between race and ethnicity. First, some minorities that today are seen as voluntary ethnic groups, such as Irish-Americans and Jews, were seen as involuntary hereditary races a century ago.

Second, U.S. usage treats the African-American or Black community as either ethnicity or race, depending on context. When discussing differences between African Americans and Jamaicans, Barbadians, Trinidadians, or recent immigrants from Africa, the term denotes a voluntary ethnicity. But when discussing the U.S. endogamous Black/non-Black color line, any English-speaking U.S. resident of distinctly visible sub-Saharan ancestry is usually considered involuntarily "Black."

Finally, conflicting voter understanding as to how many races exist produce conflicting definitions in government regulations. For example, U.S. Census Bureau regulations do not consider Hispanics to be a race, demand that Hispanics filling out census choose a race among Black, White, Native American, or several categories of Asian, and forbid them from checking off "other" and writing in "Hispanic." On the other hand, EEOC regulations consider Hispanics to be a distinct "race" and forbid employers from reporting Hispanics as White, Black, or Native American.

Nevertheless, despite the slight overlap between race and class, and the increasingly blurred distinction between race and ethnicity, the race concept remains fruitful for the study of historical events.

Editor-in-chief action

I know it will be difficult for those involved to avoid getting emotional on this topic and about any article about it, but it is extremely important that whatever article we have on this topic be unbiased. So I would like to assure you, if I can, that I mean absolutely no disrespect toward anyone involved in the above discussion, or to the author of the article.

The article as it stands at present clearly advances just one view, omitting others, about race. Whether or not the article can be worked into something better, it should not be included in the Citizendium main article space until it is consistent with our Neutrality Policy. Much of the above discussion focused on whether the article is an "essay" or not. I think this is a red herring. The point is that it presents one contentious interpretation of its topic, and we are committed to neutrality.

Just to be clear, I want to emphasize that the point of view articulated in the article is obviously important, common among scholars, and needs to be stated well in the final article.

The article as started by Anthony Argyriou might be a better initial framework in which to proceed, simply because it is more neutral.

--Larry Sanger 08:39, 12 May 2007 (CDT)

I also like Anthony's version. I've spent a lot of time at Wikipedia over the years on Race and also on Race and intelligence. Clear definitions of terminology are essential, but sorely missed.

If there are competing definitions of what a "race" is, then perhaps we should list them all (at least the major ones). Surely there is more than the one which is most familiar to me: skin color. There is also nationality or ethnicity. "The French race", Hutus & Tutsi (one race in two tribes? or two races?).

There are also those who object to any use discussion or mention of "race", on various grounds: (1) It's unfair to classify people by race, because it supports prejudice and discrimination (see racism - currently a red link). (2) It's a "social construct", so we should banish it as a meaningless term (reminds me of how Newspeak would delete words from its vocabulary - see also politically correct speech - oops, another red link).

Let's not "take a stand" on either the concept (good or bad) or the term (meaningful or meaningless). Rather, let us apply "neutrality policy" and describe what various major scholars have said. --Ed Poor 09:18, 12 May 2007 (CDT)

Recommended further reading (annotated)

What follows is a short list of the most useful sources on the "race" notion in the United States and Latin America. Each has a short annotation to help the reader choose items within his/her own interests. Frank W Sweet 12:40, 12 May 2007 (CDT)

Talk:Race/Readings (Moved since it ended up quadrupling the size of this talk page)

Uploaded Anthony's article

I have gone ahead and uploaded Anthony's article, since Frank appears to have left us; if anyone has an objection to my doing so, feel free to re-blank and we can discuss some more. --Larry Sanger 13:33, 12 May 2007 (CDT)