Talk:Trinity United Church of Christ, Chicago

	NOTICE, please do not remove from top of page.
	Given that this subject is one of high public interest of late, and there is such an enormous amount of often brash ignorance going around about it, I have released this same material at Wikipedia where the material will currently enjoy high traffic.
	Check the history of edits to see who inserted this notice.

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Progress

I'll finish this and tidy thing over the next week or so. Stephen Ewen 14:54, 13 April 2008 (CDT)

Meaty content

Wow, that's a goodly chunk of material, and with a fair amount of serious research behind it. J. Noel Chiappa 13:30, 16 April 2008 (CDT)

Thanks, Noel. I need to finish up the article, the sections on Wright, when I can find the time, or if someone else has the literature, feel free. Stephen Ewen 22:42, 18 April 2008 (CDT)

Stuff on context of spread of Islam in Chicago and TUCC's reaction of Africentricsm to it

the stuff on Muslims is not related to this mainstream Protestant church, so I dropped it. It's leftover from Wikipedia. Richard Jensen 23:12, 25 April 2008 (CDT)

I myself wrote it--I wrote this entire article as it now stands. The material you removed crucially contextualizes Trinity, according to Speller and others. Speller explicitly states that the material you removed are Trinity's contextual backdrops, as I iterated in the material. I'm going to revert your removal and addition but hope you will consider how to incorporate what you added to what I wrote (it is true that forms of Christianity had been spreading in the region, as had black non-Christian religions). To understand Trinity's evolution to Africentrism under Wright, one simply must understand the backdrops Speller takes pains to spell out. You really should carefully read this entire article so far and carefully study the entirety of the cited sources, as I have, before jumping in too much. Stephen Ewen 04:02, 26 April 2008 (CDT)

I read the Speller dissertation and the Muslim stuff is not there. Chicago blacks are 80% Baptists and methodists), with only a tiny number of Muslims. Black nationalism comes from Marcus Garvey in 1920, who was Christian (I'm working on a Garvey article right now--see recent book on GarveyRichard Jensen 17:42, 26 April 2008 (CDT)

the solution to background material is for Steve to write an article on the Black Muslims --they certainly deserve one--and to link to it from here. The ministers were trained, by the way, at U Chicago Divinity School by people like Marty. See Marty's article which I added. There is no Muslim theology at Trinity and the black nationalism is much older--esp Garvey in 1920s but also late 19th century AME theology had separatist /black pride/ back to Africa elements led by Bishop Henry Turner see Henry Turner article Likewise there is little Lutheran influence at Trinity (the UCC later merged with German E and R Calvinists--not Lutherans--but it hard to see much Calvinism at Trinity ) Richard Jensen 17:51, 26 April 2008 (CDT).

That material is in Speller's Walkin' the Talk. Stephen Ewen 18:14, 26 April 2008 (CDT)

thew point is that Muslims were never part of the church that is the topic of the article, and had no direct influence on it. So they belong in a separate article. In a book you might put in filler background material, but in an encyclopedia you use separate articles. (She was not allowed to do that in her dissertation, which Marty directed.) Many other factors are more important (such as belong in the general article on Black history).

I share the concern about people painting Trinity with an Islamic brush via mis-impression but it is equally of great concern that it not be painted as racist. The enlightenment that disables that impression is to understand the larger social and religious context of Chicago and the nation which drove its shift from an assimilationist strain of Congregationalism to Africentric Christianity. Speller contextualizes that shift by pinpointing "the surge of black nationalism during the early 1970s that instigated Trinity's shift from black face to black pride" (p 103 ff, Speller dissertation). In short, this shift was a reaction to black Islam (and a few other non-Christian groups); an attempt to co-opt the positive elements of black Islam into Chritianity and to form a new missiology; a competition for converts, in short. In the even larger picture the shift was a skirmish in the battle between Christianity and Islam. Stephen Ewen 21:25, 26 April 2008 (CDT)

Speller in her scholarly book mentions Islam in half of one sentence. In a popular non-scholarly study she can add all the stuff she wants but it won't pass CZ expert muster. There are 100++ background factors, and they deserve their own articles. Black Nationalism goes back long before the Muslims, who are very minor players., Look up the Garvey cite I gave, for example, or Bishop Turner. Garvey was real with millins of supporters. The Nation of Islam is a downscale group, mostly ex-criminals, who have little in commonm indeed with the well-to-do highly educated folks at Trinity. I was a professor of history in Chicago 25 years and followed the story closely and directed dissertations on the city and spent a lot of time in Hyde Park. Furthermore CZ really can't afford to promote the false idea that Obama is closely linked to Muslims. (He gave $25,000+ to Trinity last year and that needs mention).Richard Jensen 21:39, 26 April 2008 (CDT)

I am using black Islam with black nationalism interchangeably. The point remains that Speller, in her dissertation, states that it was "the surge of black nationalism during the early 1970s that instigated Trinity's shift from black face to black pride". Also, keep in mind that this is a church's history. What is true of history and what is so to the church as it defines its history will not always be the same. In that vein, Speller, who has been a member at Trinity for some 20 years, is much better positioned to know this church's history than anyone here. Another thing: Walkin the Talk is not "a popular non-scholarly study". It is a scholarly study and Marty Martin wrote the preface. Stephen Ewen 21:52, 26 April 2008 (CDT)

let me backtrack: Spiller does talk about the Black Muslins in her dissertation to say (p 107) that Trinity rejected their approach as well as several other approaches (like Cleague), as Trinity insisted it was "unapologetically Christian" --that is, not Islam at all--and proudly remained in a predominantly white UCC (the great majority of black Protestant churches had broken from white groups, as did Cleague's UCC splitoff). Speller argues (pp 109-118) that the Congregational heritage was less important for Trinity than the Cane Ridge Christian-Connection denomination tradition from the Second Great Revival--but somehow it gets left out of this article. While the black Congregationalists tended to assimilate with whites, the Afro-Christians were always more separate, and more revivalistic and emotional. That is, she argues the Afro-Christian part of UCC is more important that than the Congregational part. She says the story of Trinity is the "reincarnation of the Afro-Christian spirit" (p 117) and I agree with her--the Afro Christian group is central to Trinity and the Muslims are just local color. It is historically quite false to "using black Islam with black nationalism interchangeably". I think that is the problem here. It ignores the black nationalism that was rampant long before the little black muslim sect came along--Turner and his Methodists, Garvey and the millions in his mass movement, the Afro-Christians of UCC, the militants of CORE and related student groups are far more important. Richard Jensen 22:07, 26 April 2008 (CDT)

Speller (pp 108-9) describes black Congregationalism on one hand and the then-called Afro-Christianity on the other and says that they "translated into two differing forms of religious expression--one influenced by the dominant culture and one shaped by African culture." She then says this was a "backdrop" to specifically early Trinitarians who adhered to the assimilationist notions of black Congregationalism as taught by 19th century missionaries to blacks. She then goes on to say that the church underwent a transformation from that assimilationist black Congregationalism to one going back to the Afro-Christian root. What she is saying very clearly is that the Afro-Christian root was initially not at all important to Trinitarians--they initially found their identity in black "middle-classness" and black Congregationalism. How did that change? Speller says that is was "the surge of black nationalism during the early 1970s that instigated Trinity's shift from black face to black pride". This is a crucial point because of how it contextualizes the shift. Stephen Ewen 22:33, 26 April 2008 (CDT)

yes, but after the assassination of Malcolm X in 1965, blacks paid little attention to the Muslims. They were not players in the 1970s. The Afro Christian roots she explains at great length were from the Christian Connection denom. that merged into the UCC. The assassination of King in 1968 and the big riots in Chicago that followeed was probably as important as anything in shaping the mood. Richard Jensen 22:41, 26 April 2008 (CDT)

Given a concession that it was "the surge of black nationalism during the early 1970s that instigated Trinity's shift," a point that cannot be let go, I don't really have any disagreement. Stephen Ewen 22:54, 26 April 2008 (CDT)

yes I agree "the surge of black nationalism during the early 1970s that instigated Trinity's shift"  :) Richard Jensen 22:57, 26 April 2008 (CDT)

Great. Now if only I could get you to concede that certain social-religious occurrences in his time were causative to Noah Webster's undergoing of a religious transformation over time, which explains the "shift" between his earlier Christian-centric statements about his spellers and his later views and statements concerning his work. :) Stephen Ewen 00:57, 27 April 2008 (CDT)

Oh, I think Webster was more influenced by the Hindoos in that regard.  :) Richard Jensen 01:40, 27 April 2008 (CDT)

Editor decision

Let's make this an official editor's decision -- "deep background" especially if weakly integrated in a history article, is removed; it belongs in a separate article. In this case all the Muslim material will mislead readers into thinking there is something Islamic about trinity, which is another one of those misunderstandings.Richard Jensen 20:06, 26 April 2008 (CDT)

Punditry

This is a church's history, not the place for you to post unabashed and biased punditry. Try at 2008 United States presidential election instead. Stephen Ewen 18:02, 28 April 2008 (CDT)

bias?

- CZ has very strict rules against removing material without discussion of the talk page. The text in question is a close paraphrase of today's Washington Post story, which closely resembles the account in the New York Times and Wall Street Journal (and the reports on the network news programs). Wright himself said it's important because the black church is under attack. This is central to the histoiry of Trinity and cannot be ignored.Richard Jensen 18:09, 28 April 2008 (CDT)

It's as simple as this, Richard. You may turn this into an article of political garbage, but my name will not be associated with it. I am exercising my right to remove the material I added to the article. I have no time for games with this. Stephen Ewen 19:20, 28 April 2008 (CDT)