CZ Talk:Recipes

Continental

"Continental", I think, is the wrong word to use for this subgrouping, or grouping. The word, at least in the United States, used to have a very definite, although vague, meaning: a semi-French, semi-Italian, semi-SOMETHING sort of upscale cuisine, served in fancy restaurants, that was NOT what was plainly recognized as American-type food. Some of the best restaurants in Los Angeles, say, in the 1950s and 1950s, such as Perino's, La Rue, and Scandia, as well as a whole bunch of others, served what was generally called "Continental Cuisine". I think that the phrase has now disappeared, except, perhaps, in an ironic sense, but to geezers like me it seems wrong to use it as proposed here. I dunno what else to suggest, however.... Hayford Peirce 10:27, 22 February 2008 (CST)

No, you're right. My grandfather had taken chef courses and there was definitely a style of American (read 'US') cooking called Continental, a chi chi fon fon fon style. I don't know if that's where the "continental breakfast" came from - same idea or not, I mean.

Soo...was 'continental' here meant to mean 'sorted by continent'? Why don't we just do that, then? I started--change it back if you no like.

I can foresee a bit of a problem, though--is this going to end up being a listing by country? Then by region within country? Are we starting the CZ International Cookbook?

I don't actually care; I'm jus' sayin'.

Aleta Curry 22:46, 22 February 2008 (CST)

Frankly, I don't know what the hell we're doing, or where we're going. Everyone seems to spend so much time on Proposals, and Proposals *about* Proposals, etc. etc., with gazillions of words and woman-hours of thought devoted to them, without anything, seemingly, ever being *done*, that although I may not actually *despair*, at least my mind reels and my eyes glaze. For instance, right now, we have an article called French cuisine, and as a subpage to that French cuisine/Catalogs; the latter has a long list of French food items, some of which are linked to actual articles, some of which, in turn, actually have recipes within them.... Several months ago, some of us spent a certain amount of time making lists, which became Catalogs, I guess, of different cuisines by nationality, and various proposals were made about them, and then suddenly nothing more was said or done about them. So, right now, where do the two above-mentioned articles/catalogs fit into the Grand Scheme of Things? Hayford Peirce 10:38, 23 February 2008 (CST)

US humorist and food writer Calvin Trillin sometimes makes fun of "Continental-cuisine" restaurants by referring to an imaginary one called "Le Maison de la Casa House". Bruce M.Tindall 09:15, 23 February 2008 (CST)

Calvin Trillin is great -- there should be an article about him! Hayford Peirce 10:29, 23 February 2008 (CST)

In India, continental refers to any food belonging to / originating from Europe or North America. Non-continental may be Chinese, Mughlai, or Kerala / Bengali food and so on. Supten Sarbadhikari 21:37, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Index

Somewhere, and right from the beginning, we're gonna have to have a *really* good index for the recipes, one that is *truly* comprehensive, so that no matter how someone is looking for a particular recipe he/she will be able to *easily* find it. Each entry, of course, will have a redirect to a single recipe. In other words, Beef Burgundy, Boeuf a la bourguignon, Boeuf a la bourguignonne, Beef bourguignon, etc. Or, of course, an alternative: have a see Beef bourguignon etc. for all the variants, directing to whatever we decide is the principle name for each item.

In the iconic old New York Times Cookbook of 1961 edited by Craig Clairborne there was an excellent index that *also* included things like Martinis and a couple of other cocktails, since there was a brief drinks recipe section at the end of the food recipes. We would want to have drinks included in the master recipe....

A further thought: assuming we came up with different recipes (someone suggested iconic ones) for the same dish, the index could also look like:

• Hamburger
  • Ray Krok's Big Burger
  • Paul Bocuse's 'Omburgaire Extraordinaire
  • Paul Prudhomme's Cajun 'Burger
  • James Beard's George Washington's Favorite
  • Etc.

Hayford Peirce 19:36, 22 February 2008 (CST)

That's a good idea. Supten Sarbadhikari 21:40, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Should be scholarly

Placing things like "equipment you will need" and "preparation time" seems more like something out of Good Housekeeping magazine. We really ought to ensure we take a scholarly approach here, and really ought rely chiefly on quoting. Stephen Ewen 01:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

• That's a good point, of course. On the other hand, it's always useful when looks at a recipe to be told from the start how long it ought to take to make, although, in my rather extended experience in the kitchen, almost every recipe I've ever seen always grossly understates the time required, perhaps not for the actual cooking, but almost *always* for the preparation time. And if one ventures into the haute world of classical French cuisine.... My mother, my French wife, and I, three very experienced cooks, once ventured to make the classic French mother sauce called an Espagnol, which is the basis of all the great French brown sauces. The very detailed recipe said that it could be made leisurely over a weekend, while the cook took time out to dip into Fanny Hill as the stock simmered slowly. Aside from about 6 hours of driving around San Francisco to obscure wholesale meat markets, Latino markets for pig rind, etc. etc., plus a venture to a restaurant supply store to buy a *second* 15-gallon pot, it took the three of us 3 long, hard days to make the damn stuff. And it might have been *very* useful to warn us that a *second* enormous pot would be needed. And that a *strong* person is needed to *lift* the freakin' pots once they're filled.

• So I think that if we have a recipe for, say, Bearnaise sauce, we can assume that the average person has a couple of sharp knives, a small pot, a whisk or an electric blender, in other words the usual stuff that a well-equipped kitchen should have. For some recipes, however, it ought to be made clear what will be needed in addition to just the ingredients.

• Although as far as equipment goes, I think I could put my hands on a couple of classic, or semi-classic, lists of what, say, a *restaurant* kitchen should have, or what a well-equipped home kitchen for someone interested in French cuisine should have. And for Chinese cooking, let's say, it might be useful to point out that most recent tests of different methods of cooking traditional Chinese dishes at home have shown that unless you have a *professional* quality heat source for your wok, you will have more success in using an ordinary frying pan or saute dish -- home kitchens just aren't equipped to heat woks to the extremely high temperatures that restaurants use. It can be done at home, of course, if you want to cut a big round hole in a kitchen counter and then install a separate gas-burning wok heater beneath the counter (my dream, in the olden days), but I doubt if many people actually do this.

• I think, if it comes down to it, in general, *more* information is better than *less* information. But as to what format it should be put into, I don't have a clue.... Hayford Peirce 10:57, 23 February 2008 (CST)

I think prep time and equipment can just be handled within the natural flow of the "Preparation" section. Cook for 2 hours in a big pot. I say this in the interest of keeping the recipe as simple as possible. Also, I think we should do away with the difficulty rating - I don't think we're here to give our opinions on the recipes difficulty, taste, etc.. simply provide the reader with a basic recipe so they can better understand the article about the particular dish. I'm going to clean this up on this page, feel free to revert, but I'm feeling bold. --Todd Coles 22:43, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

Sorry, I missed the above comment before adding some stuff just a moment ago to the main article's example. In any case, my additions were tentative, just to see what they looked like and how people reacted to them.

• Prep. time is, of course, quite subjective, as people work at incredibly different speeds. Most of the newer cookbooks do give prep. times but, in my judgment, they are always wrong, seriously underestimating the time. The New York Times Cook Book does not give them at all. So, I agree, we're probably wasting our time with this.
• Equipment -- as you say, within the flow of the article.
• Difficulty rating is the hardest of all and I threw it in just for the sake of completion. In the example given, I tried to write an honest evaluation from my own standpoint. Making Bologonese (I think) is a snap BUT it's tedious, time-consuming, and you can't just throw it on the stove and let it cook for 8 hours -- you gotta check it every 30 minutes, for instance, and probably add a little water. If we try to put all of that in (outside of the recipe steps), it will entail an entire essay....
• I *do* think that we want the number of servings in a fairly prominent spot, though. This, too, is somewhat subjective, but not as much as some of the other items.

But, of course, I'm open to suggestions all the way along the line

Hayford Peirce 12:09, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

Number of servings is fine with me. My issue with difficulty is, much like prep time, it all depends on how comfortable the cook is in a kitchen. If someone has never baked a cake before, it will obviously be more difficult than for someone who has a little more experience with it. --Todd Coles 12:59, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

Yup, I think of myself as a *moderately* rapid cook, fairly neat, and *very* painstaking. My French wife was a speed demon -- super-neat but, in most things, twice as fast as I was. *Her* mother, however, was as slow as a snail -- it was infuriating to have her in the kitchen trying to "help". She was actually a pretty decent cook but so sloooooooow...." HOWEVER: how about a category called, not Preparation time, but Preparation notes? In MOST cases it would be empty. But in some cases it would say: Can be prepared several days in advance. Can be prepared a week in advance. Can be prepared in several stages over the course of several days. Must be eaten the moment it's finished. Cook must hover over the dish during its entire preparation. Fresh tomatoes must be used, canned cannot be used. Etc. I myself think that this would be MOST useful -- Julia has a brief note in HER recipes that says: Can be done ahead to this point, or some such. Trust me, even a *very* experienced cook such as myself can sometimes make major mistakes in trying to mentally judge the time for preparing a new recipes. So I think that if *I* would find it useful, others would too.Hayford Peirce 13:20, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

I agree, a notes section will definitely be useful. --Todd Coles 19:56, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

What next?

We can include a link to the Template:Nutrition in the CZ:Recipes. Supten Sarbadhikari 21:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I added the recipe from Portuguese cod casserole (bacalhau à Gomes de Sá) to the page so we can have an example to tweak and find an ideal format. --Todd Coles 22:51, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

Links

I think we should have links throughout not only articles, but subpages and recipes as well. Linking the words "mince" and "sautee" would be very helpful to people like me who do not always know exactly what is meant... --Larry Sanger 14:20, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

Easy to do, Monsieur le Patron! Hayford Peirce 14:25, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

It'd be awesome if we programmed the wiki to work like NY Times pages. Double-click on ANY unlinked word and it opens a new window to a dictionary definition. See http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/18/business/18cnd-stox.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin for an example and to try it. Stephen Ewen 15:29, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

Here's another suggestion, one that *I* would be capable of carrying out, hehe. We create an article called Cooking terms or some such. Then we start writing brief definitions, arranged alphabetically within that article. Ie,

• Mince—to chop very finely with a knife; generally vegetables but also meat. In British English, "mince" also means "ground meat".
• Sauté—to fry in bla bla bla....
• Zeste—the outer part of the peel of citrus fruits etc.

Okay, that's Part One. (We would only add a new definition as it was used in an actual recipe article.) Part Two is to create Redirects for *every* item in the list. So if Larry clicks on the mince link, it takes him automatically to the Cooking terms article. Then, using his native intelligence, he scrolls down to wherever the definition is lurking. This, I think, would be less work than creating a brand new article for each and every item, particularly since most of these articles would then consist of a mere couple of sentences. Comments? Or, if you speak French, Comment? Hayford Peirce 20:07, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

My first thought is that this is a good idea. I think it would be difficult to write articles about slicing and dicing - they seem like they would be more like dictionary entries. Another thought would be to make it a catalog off of the cooking article. --Todd Coles 20:16, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

Sure. It really doesn't matter *where* it lives. Just as long as the Redirect links take you there.... Hayford Peirce 20:26, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

To do list

Ok, I'm going to try and layout and organize what I think needs to still be done to this page to get it ready to go. Feel free to add, remove, complete a step, etc.

1. Page needs to be cleaned up - mainly removing the commentary to the talk page so we can have a clear idea as to what the page layout will look like.

2. Come to a consensus as to what headings should be included within a recipe template. For each heading, write a brief description for how they should be formatted.

3. Adopt a recipe template. Post an example on the page. Write instructions for it's usage.

4. Finish polishing the "general editing guidelines."

5. Remove techniques list from the page (Especially if we're going to use the linking method describe above, I don't think there is need to have them listed here.)

Todd Coles 20:34, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

Those are all good suggestions. I'll let you do what you think is necessary, then I'll chip in with comments or suggestions if necessary. Hayford Peirce 20:53, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

I think we're pretty close to done on 2 and 4, if everyone agrees? Also, I think we'll just put the template in a holding pattern until Robert gets the font issues worked out with the new skin. --Todd Coles 20:25, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

Comments on general editing guidelines

• The subpage will be limited to representative, even iconic recipes and variants of dishes. This will not be an "add your own recipe" subpage.

We're going to have to consider this very carefully before making a firm decision. My understanding is: the ingredients listed in a printed and published recipe are NOT copyrightable, or subject, say to a trademark. BUT, the *instructions* cannot be directly copied. So, for instance, we could open Julia Child's Mastering the Art of French Etc. at random, copy out all of the ingredients and the quantities for making, oh, blanquette de veau, BUT we would have to *substantially* rewrite her instructions for how to put everything together. Okay, this is no big deal, you say. The problem is, how many people are going to want to find a well-known, or "iconic" recipe, and then spend a lot of time formatting it and rewriting it? Tres peu, I would say. But what a lot of people *might* be doing, is what I myself have been up to for, oh, the last 25 years now: finding recipes that I liked; cooking them; modifying them according to my own whims; *correcting* them sometimes (even Great Julia nods from time to time, at least in the early editions of her books); and then eventually setting them down in computer form for *my own* collection of recipes. The recipes that I have so far put into CZ, or the photo galleries of various items that I've cooked, have, in fact, come directly from WordPerfect recipes that I have converted to RTF and then reformatted for CZ requirements. In a very real sense, therefore, the recipes I've put in here *are* my recipes, even though the Bolognese sauce, for instance, is about 90 to 95 percent Marcella Hazan in terms of ingredients and technique, but about 95% rewritten by me. The point of all this, therefore, is that I don't think we want to ban out of hand *other* people putting in their own recipes. Otherwise we may never get any additional ones. I am, however, on this matter very much open to suggestions and discussions with others.... Bon appetit! Hayford Peirce 19:56, 19 February 2008 (CST)

FWIW, and please consider this just one more opinion, I am inclined to agree with Hayford here. I suspect that the rule proposed here would mean that we would have very few recipes--and in that case, what's the point of a recipes subpage/subproject? On the other hand, I think it depends on how the rule is interpreted. For example, what does the rule imply about what recipes we may include for meat loaf? If it means that we can only have some famous chef's recipe, or the Joy of Cooking recipe, we are clearly limiting ourselves. But does the rule imply that? I don't know. --Larry Sanger 12:11, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

I think that this is one of those cases in which we should just let the situation play itself out within a set of rather flexible rules and see what happens. Obviously, I have a certain interest in food and recipes; many others do also. But I don't see it as my life's work over the next two years as taking all the recipes that I already have on my computer and transforming them into CZ articles with annotated recipes: if I wanted to go to all that trouble, I would just try to sell it as a manuscript to the good people at Knoft who have published Julia Child and Marcella Hazan. I'll certainly put in *some* stuff, as my whimsy leads me, but not hundreds and hundreds. On the other hand, what is to say that three other people might join CZ tomorrow whose goal would be to put in as many recipes as they can? There are, I gather, thousands of people right now putting recipes into blogs and foodie sites all over the Net -- some of them might well end up here. So I think that we want to be able to eventually have a "Beef/Meatloaf" Header/Subheader/ with maybe half a dozen different recipes under it. There may well be a Joy of Cooking, plus an old Fanny Farmer, two different versions from James Beard, three French versions (also listed under Terrines, cold), one from me, one from Noel, and a particularly tasty kangeroo version from Aleta. All of them, of course, should be suitably and correctly attributed, just as, I think, I have already done with the Bolognese sauce recipe, where I write at some point in the article that the following recipe is basically that of Marcella Hazan (see footnotes), with modifications by me, and that it also meets the general specifications of the Italian Council on Spaghetti Sauce or whatnot. It wouldn't be hard for every additional recipe to have at least something similar, even if it's nothing more than, "Here's a recipe for meatloaf that my old granny used to make in her wood-burning stove." Hayford Peirce 12:35, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

I don't know what the original intent of that guideline was when it was written, but here's my take. My worries are that we could end up having 25 recipes posted for marinara sauce, with only subtle differences (recipe A uses more garlic than recipe B), and I think that is something we want to avoid. Having multiple recipes, that are representative of the various ways you can cook a dish is important - it shows the reader that the dish can be made in several distinct manners. But I do feel that all the recipes for a particular dish should be distinct. Recipes from both Emeril or grandma are valuable. --Todd Coles 19:41, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Well, yes. I'm glad you clarified that. As you say, a recipe that uses more garlic than another doesn't make the cut. There should be *distinct* differences between the different recipes. This is a clear-cut case of where a majestrial Editor would be useful. He/she would simply say, "No, that new recipe will not be permitted. Period. End of discussion." Lacking Editors for the moment, I imagine that if the case *does* arise, enough interested parties will hash it over (groan) and reach some sort of consensus on it. Hayford Peirce 20:59, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

• Recipe subpages shall not editable without prior discussion and agreement of a food editor, or in his or her absence, interested authors.

Yes, I think this is vital. Suppose I *do* find the original Paul Bocuse recipe (iconic, even) for, let's say poached salmon with sorrel sauce (maybe that's the three Troisgros Brothers' recipe, but it is, or used to be, pretty iconic). If I go to the trouble to copy it, rewrite it so that it becomes original, etc., etc., then put it into CZ, I sure don't want Ro, hehe, coming along and changing the butter to duck fat or the white wine to Bourbon. [That should be 'Reau', surely? - Ro Thorpe 11:59, 23 February 2008 (CST)]

Rôt or Reaux, now that I think of it.... I really don't think this will ever be a problem at CZ, but we should be clear about this matter from the start. (It seems strange, but of all the *hundreds* of article I worked on at WP and kept on my watchlist, I would say that the Mayonnaise article was and still is the most vandalized. Go figger....) Hayford Peirce 19:56, 19 February 2008 (CST)

I would agree here as well. In fact, I would say recipes are more like pictures than like encyclopedia articles; so it would make sense to let people sign them and take credit for them. The notion that a recipe's ingredients (temperature, etc.) can be edited a la wiki wholly misrepresents how recipes are created. They are created in kitchens, not in wikis, and since kitchens are very particular things--just as cameras are--it in a way misrepresents the facts to the reader not to credit the recipes to their creators. Again, encyclopedia articles are another matter entirely.

Indeed, on further thought, why should anyone other than the contributor of a recipe have the right to edit it--even a food editor--unless the person had actually gone to the trouble of preparing the dish according to the recipe, and then tested out the specific thing changed? Since I imagine few people will go to that trouble (30 minutes-3 hours just to test out a one recipe edit or two?), the only person who will be justified in editing the recipe would be its original author. If someone wants to edit an existing recipe, he or she should get permission from the person who contributed it, I suspect--or else simply contribute a brand new recipe. And then we need to have a sensible but efficient and non-divisive way to decide which of possibly many recipes to keep.

Frankly, I don't think we should be using a wiki for this at all, but we don't have the money or motivated volunteers to make the sort of changes to the software that would need to be made... --Larry Sanger 12:11, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

More good points from Larry, here -- I can see that he has really thought it through! I think that what will happen, presuming that we get other knowledgeable folks interested in this aspect of the project, is that in the talk subpage of one of the recipes we'll get a comment from someone saying, "Are you *really* using two sticks of butter to make that sauce beurre blanc? My Larousse Gastronomique says to use at least 4 sticks, and the last time that *I* made it, I ended up using 5 sticks." So, assuming that I was the one who put that recipe there in the first place, I might well smite my brow and say, "By yimmy, yes! I mistyped, I *did* mean to say 5 sticks of butter." Or I might reply that, gee, I just made it again last night and it worked fine with 2 sticks for me. Just how *thick* is the sauce you're making, etc. etc." And the recipe might eventually end up with a footnote, or an introductory paragraph saying that the quantity of butter used can vary greatly, primarily depending on how thick you want the sauce to be. And various authorities could be cited. In any case, I doubt if we will be in a position before a long, long time, in which we are so inundated with variations of the same recipe that we have to wonder which ones should be kept. As a matter of fact, take a look at the Mai tai article -- I put in *seven* different recipes, one below each other. That's *one* way to handle it, particularly for simple stuff like cocktails. Hayford Peirce 12:48, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

If it gets placed on a subpage, it can always be locked for editing. --Robert W King 12:18, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

I don't think locking is the answer - we have a virtually vandalism free environment here and I think it will be easy enough for authors in the workgroup to monitor changes to recipes. Perhaps I'm naive about that though. And also, I think discussion about "I made your recipe and it sucked!" should be strongly discouraged. My feelings on this are that we are an educational resource, not a cookbook, and we are merely giving examples of recipes. Sure, I expect these recipes to get some usage at some point, but if you try it and don't think there is enough butter for your taste, just add more butter the next time you cook it and don't worry about how it reads on here. Like Hayford said earlier, everyone finds a base recipe, uses it, and then modifies it to their own tastes. --Todd Coles 19:41, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Well, I'd say our identity is more or less limited by what counts as reference material. Cookbooks are reference works, but not necessarily educational resources. As to locking--no, because that would prevent the original author from editing, which would make it hard to fix mistakes (as per Hayford's worry). --Larry Sanger 19:49, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Template discussion

Ingredients 9 pieces dried (salt) cod 3 kg peeled potatoes 2 cloves garlic 5 eggs olive oil chopped parsley olives Preparation Boil the cod, potatoes and eggs, having cut the cod in strips and removed skin and bones. Slice the peeled potatoes with the eggs. Sauté in olive oil, with wheels of sliced onion and chopped garlic until the onion is yellow. Alternate layers of cod, potato, egg and onion in casserole dish. Bake in oven. When done, sprinkle with grated parsley and olives to taste and serve. Categories - Seafood, European cuisine Related recipes - Insert related recipe here

Okay, here's another example, with somewhat more explicit details, although I've added your *excellent* headers around the top and bottom:

A recipe for Bolognese sauce The following recipe was inspired by that detailed by Marcella Hazen in her iconic book but has been modified in several small ways and has been completely rewritten. It is, however, well within the classic definition of a ragù as promulgated by the Italian Academy of Cooking.

Number of servings: 12 to 16 as a first course, 6 to 8 as a main course

Time of preparation: 1 hour for initial preparation, 2 to 8 hours for final cooking; may also be done partially or wholly in advance

Difficulty: Easy to do but relatively painstaking and attention must be paid while various stages are cooked so that they do not burn

Ingredients 2 tablespoons olive oil 3 tablespoons butter 3 ounces pancetta or bacon, finely chopped 1/2 cup minced onion (1/2 medium onion, or 2 ounces) 2/3 cup minced celery (3 medium stalks, or 3 ounces) 2/3 cup minced carrot (2 medium carrots, or 3 ounces) 2 medium cloves garlic, peeled and finely minced 1/2 pound plus 2 ounces ground beef (10 ounces) 1/4 pound plus 2 ounces ground pork (6 ounces) 1/4 pound ground lamb (4 ounces) 1/2 teaspoon black pepper, altogether, plus probably a little more 1 teaspoon salt, plus a little more 1 cup whole milk 1/4 teaspoon nutmeg — plus a little more, to taste 1 cup dry white wine or 3/4 cup dry white vermouth 35 ounces canned tomatoes — whole, chopped, or crushed (1 28-ounce can plus 1/2 of a 14-ounce can, or 2-1/2 14-ounce cans) 1 medium (14-ounce) can unseasoned tomato sauce sprinkling (1/16th teaspoon) red pepper flakes, plus probably a little more 1 teaspoon sugar 1/2 dry cup red wine 1 cup water, plus more as the sauce cooks, in ½ cup increments Preparation Chop the pancetta by hand; pulse the onion, celery, and carrots in the food processor until fairly fine but not mushy. Heat the oil and butter in a large casserole and cook the vegetables and pancetta over medium heat for 2 or 3 minutes. Mince the garlic in the food processor, add to the vegetables, and stir another minute. Add the meats, the salt, and 1/4 teaspoon of the 1/2 teaspoon black pepper. Raise the heat to high and cook, stirring, until the meat has lost its red color. Add the milk and cook until all the liquid has bubbled away. Be very careful not to let the mixture burn. Add the nutmeg and white wine and cook until the liquid has completely evaporated. Once again, be very careful not to let it burn. Pulse the tomatoes (if necessary) in the food processor, then add to the pot, along with the sugar, the red wine, another 1/4 teaspoon of black pepper, the tomato sauce, a tiny bit of red pepper, and the water. Taste carefully for more salt, pepper, and nutmeg. Bring to a simmer, then place on a heat diffuser, reduce the heat, and cook uncovered at the barest simmer for 3 to 8 hours, stirring from time to time, and adding water from time to time. Don’t let it burn! Do not remove any oil that rises to the surface — stir it back in. Cook down to a nice consistency. The longer the cooking the better the sauce, apparently, at least up to 8 hours — after that there may be a point of diminishing returns. Serve on buttered pasta with Parmesan cheese. Categories: Pasta, Sauces, Italian cuisine Related recipes: Tagliatelle

I could certainly live with that format, although I think it ought to be a little bit *wider*....

In fact, I think that this is a major step forward.... Hayford Peirce 23:07, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

I took out the width syntax from your table. We should probably keep it variable depending on the content. Either that, or just make the box almost as large as the screen width by default. I can do some pretty basic layout type stuff, but we might want to grab Robert and get him to give us a nice, polished template for this once we get a firmer grasp on what we ant. --Todd Coles 23:19, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

Righto, I figured it wouldn't be hard to change the width. As you say, we can always try to rope in Robert at some point. Let me take another look at it tomorrow and see what it looks like then.... Hayford Peirce 23:59, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

I'd put the ingredients section in another box inside that's a slightly different color. And possibly a graphical representation for time. And a graphical difficulty rating. And a more visible number of servings. Hell, I'll just make up something here in a few minutes. --Robert W King 12:00, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

Robert, see the discussion page for comments from Todd and me about time and difficulty....Hayford Peirce 12:12, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

I know there's some debate over it, but the content isn't so much as an issue for me (as I don't cook), but I can easily implement a template that allows such flexibility to be determined by the actual authors, so in the regard of what the actual time and difficulty values are per recipie, they are irrelevant to me. What is relevant is that I add that capability to be determined to the template. Do you agree or disagree? --Robert W King 12:27, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

So far there's just Todd and me who have discussed this. If you *do* add them to the template, would it be easy to take them out later if the consensus is that they shouldn't be there? I'm all for having as much information as possible. In which case, why don't you add a Special Equipment thingee too. This would be used (if people agree) only for stuff like: 30-gallon pot; electric fan to dry duck's skin; 200 champagne glasses, etc. etc. Otherwise the assumption is that the cook has the normal kitchenware available. Hayford Peirce 12:43, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

It's easy to add or remove anything. --Robert W King 12:45, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

Robert, when you get the template figured out the way you want it, can you post it here so we can discuss it? --Todd Coles 20:04, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

yea.--Robert W King 21:44, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

More general guidelines

Does anyone have any ideas for general guidelines that we might have missed? --Todd Coles 14:28, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

regarding the 1 or 2 different ingredient policy

instead of disallowing the recipes that vary by one or 2 ingredients, why not just have a section at the bottom of the "recipe article" saying some varient ingredients.

For example,

"In some recipes for baking salmon, instead of using only butter and lemon, mayonaise may be used to try to seal in... etc etc"

I don't know - just the extreme, not allowing policy seems, well, harsh and I think a middle ground could be found. Also you could have external links to variants of the same dish.

Thoughts? Tom Kelly 21:27, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

first impression of policy

It feels a bit too much like ownership (not allowing editing)- that is for a website, not a wiki. I think we should definitely allow varients somehow. and the not editable by anyone else... I just would like to avoid drama later. I think there should be some serious discussion about the policies. Maybe users could submit their versions signed by their name... I don't know - recipes are so unique to the chef. It seems problematic. Thoughts? Tom Kelly 21:45, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

Yes, I agree that not allowing editing is against the spirit of a wiki, however, I think that more drama would be caused by allowing rampant editing of recipes, because as you say, recipes are unique to the chef and will surely result in feelings of ownership. To combat this, it might be a good idea to leave the "Notes" section open to editing to add this type of information.. for example, the Joy of Cooking recipe for sauerbraten at the end says "Some cooks add raisins, catsup, and ground gingersnaps). This would allow for minor variants to be mentioned, without "ruining" someones recipe. And obviously more informative to the reader as they know there are choices.

I want to note that there has been serious discussion about the policies involving recipes spread over numerous pages. We're not trying to willy-nilly throw something together here. --Todd Coles 22:39, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

Tom, there has been a *ton* of discussion about this over various sites and what it comes down to is this: It's not so much that I submit *my* yeast bread recipe and that it is sacrosanct and that it should always be known as *my* recipe; it is rather that in the recipe I've submitted I say *1* tablespoon of kosher salt. Then you, Todd, Aleta, Larry, or Joe Blow comes along and, without any discussion except maybe in the Summary line, where you write "too much salt", changes it to 1/2 tb. salt. In this lies *madness*! Are the three, four, five, or eventually, I hope, 200 people who are interested in cooking and recipes, going to get into endless WP-type revert wars about how many tb. of salt should be in a bread recipe? I repeat: madness, madness, madness. Let the first person (me in this case) put in *7* different recipes for Mai tai cocktails, say, including what purports to be the original Don the Beachcomber one. If *you*, say, disagree with that recipe, bring it up on the discussion page, or in an email to me, but *don't* just go in and change it! If there are 7 recipes for mai tais, there is plenty of room for an 8th -- put it in, as long as it has *some* substantive difference, and call it "mai tai recipe that I used to drink at the Kon Tiki Wobble & Stagger in El Paso. We're not saying that *other* recipes can't be added -- just that we shouldn't be editing each other's recipes except for (query in advance) obvious, or even subtle, mistakes.... Hayford Peirce 23:23, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

Ok, how can we make the policy appear a little more open and inviting. It feels like the first recipe sorta... "wins" which would discourage others from joining the project. Or is it only me that thinks that policy could be tweaked for better PR and a more wiki stance? I don't want to see an editing other recipes... but then maybe the individual recipes should not appear in the article itself, but in the subpages. I need to think about this matter a while before making too many comments; plus, I will be quite busy for the next 6 months and hopefully (for my sake) will not spend too much time on the wiki. Tom Kelly 13:48, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

In the past we have lost some great editors who demanded that authors must discuss any proposed changes on talk pages before being bold and editing. However, very few people would edit another's user's subpage. Maybe we should have 1 recipe that lists common ingredients and common methods of making on the article page and then an article subpage catolog linking to user's subpages with their version of the recipes. Then each users version could be edited only by the user, while the article could still have wiki qualities. Tom Kelly 14:27, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

Just to clarify, the purpose of this page is to set up the rules governing the Recipes subpage. This initiative has all stemmed from here. So there is no need to be concerned that anything on the mainspace of the article would be restricted from editing. I just changed the first sentence to reflect this, it for some reason said "recipe pages" instead of "recipe subpages". --Todd Coles 15:52, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

improving the "purpose" section

I propose adding in the purpose section where, exactly, the recipes are going - are they are going to a subpage? or in the article (on the dish) itself? I think another sentence or two is justified clarifying the purpose. Tom Kelly 13:53, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

Well, that's the main question -- I believe that Larry and most of the other are *firmly* in favor of using subpages, I guess with a tab at the top of the page. If so, that would address your fears about the "first" recipe -- it would just be the first one to be entered. Others, dozens, for all I know, would follow. As I wrote *somewhere*, there might be:

• James Beard's Gramma's Bolognese
• Paul Prudhomme's Cajun Bolognese
• Emil Lawhatever His Name is's Creole Bolognese
• Marcella Hazan's classic Bolognese
• Australian Kangaroo Bolognese
• Irish Bolognese

All I've been saying, is that *I*, for instance, can't then go into the Tom Kelly recipe and change the amount of salt in it. I can ask if maybe there's a mistake in the amount, but if you say No, that's the end of it.

I myself don't yet know what the subpages deal is gonna be, and I don't think that anyone else does either -- so wait and see! Hayford Peirce 14:05, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

I really like this method of embracing user's own recipes. I don't know if should be a user subpage, or an article subpage. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same wavelength, and it sounds like we are. How can we better portray this idea in the CZ: recipe page? Tom Kelly 14:14, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

I like the way Hayford has that laid out - that formating probably needs to be included on this page. However, I am unsure about attaching users names to these recipes. First, why would anyone care what Todd Coles recipe for Bolognese is, who the hell is he? Secondly, I think this starts tredding into the self-promotion waters and we want to avoid that.

Also, I think somewhere up above Hayford mentioned that recipe instructions cannot be copied under copyright laws, so having "James Beard's Whatever" is probably not a good idea unless this somehow falls under fair use (and we don't have an adopted fair use policy here yet.)--Todd Coles 15:57, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

I had not thought of the self promotion issue... hmm... Tom Kelly 17:26, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

I think what I said was that ingredients cannot be copyrighted, and that the basic instructions, or techniques described, cannot be copyrighted. The actual word order in the recipes *can* be copyrighted. If I take James Beard's recipe for Basic Bread and rewrite his instructions, however, we can reproduce his recipe in a sense. You will note in the Bolognese sauce, Mai tai, Navy Grog, and Zombie (cocktail) recipes that *all* of them mention someone, either Marcella Hazan or Don the Beachcomber and credit the essential basic recipe to them, while saying that there are a few minor modifications (and complete rewriting of the text). I, for one, am certainly not going to look up 250 Julia Child recipes and rewrite them for inclusion. I do have, however, several hundred recipes on my computer, many of them for either iconic or basic things, that I have extensively rewritten and revised over the years. Some of these I may stick in here eventually. If they are associated with a well-known name, that name will be mentioned somewhere. Please note that in the Recipes index that has already started, I have listed Mai tai, *not* Don the Beachcomber's Mai tai.... Hayford Peirce 18:59, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

Just to be clear, I'd like to ask if the intention is to have all the mai tai recipes on a single page, or one per sub-sub-page? Will we have a separate mai tai/Recipes/Don the Beachcomber page? I think probably not... --Larry Sanger 10:06, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

I see now that there's a comment on CZ:Recipes that addresses this. So, we wouldn't list individual recipes on sub-sub-pages, but instead types of a given dish--for which no encyclopedia article is anticipated. So, presumably, we won't have articles titled cheeseburger or bacon cheeseburger, so recipes for these sandwiches go on Hamburger/Recipes. --Larry Sanger 10:16, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

Yes, I think I made a poor example and probably should have copied Hayford's example from above. I was envisioning something similar to the catalogs subpage, with a deeper level that would just contain 1 recipe, instead of cluttering the main recipe page with a bunch of recipes to scroll through. --Todd Coles 19:08, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

Improving the general guidelines section

"Recipes shall not editable by anyone except the individual who originally contributed it. We also strongly discourage unnecessary criticism of recipes within these page. Informed commentary is welcomed, ie, a query suggesting that the amount of a particular ingredient is seriously flawed and is possibly a typo; more subjective comments should be sent by private email to the original contributing author. "

To me, this is too harsh and any tweaking of the English or tweaking of the policy that could be done will help make the project appear more open and friendly - and less of 1st recipe posted wins. Tom Kelly 13:56, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

Some of this was addressed in the section above by H.P., but I think we can always try to improve the message. Tom Kelly 14:16, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

I believe this is adequately addressed by the notes clause that you added, which I am in agreement with. --Todd Coles 16:03, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

"Recipes pertaining to different countries, regions, and ethnic culinary groupings may be verified by Citizens belonging to those groups."

My first thought on reading this section was: Chinese dishes - there is a lot of difference in "American Chinese" dishes and real "Chinese cuisine," yet, do they have the same name? How is one going to verify an American Chinese dish? Internationalization of cuisine should be addressed as something along the lines of "traditional" vs. americanized (?) vs. (??). --just some thoughts. Tom Kelly 14:00, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

My sencond thought on this was Sushi. There are traditional Sushi styles unique to each area of Japan (and other countries I would imagine) and then there are International sushi styles that you see all over L.A. and other cities around the world. Is the traditional vs international style addressed in the categories properly? Tom Kelly 14:19, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

To be honest, as I reread this one, I don't really understand the need for it or what it's getting at. In the long run, it would be nice to have food science editors have the ultimate say so over some of this stuff. This line should probably be removed, IMO. --Todd Coles 16:03, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

discouraging others from editing - problem for recipes from users who later leave?

won't this become an issue? Someone comes, submits 25 recipes, then is no longer active or responsive to emails about the recipes. While we can worry about edit wars, I think abandoned recipes may be a bigger issue in the future if the project exists long enough. The Internet will outlive 100-year life of an individual. And again, it urks me to go against the wiki concept on the main page. Or should recipes be "signed articles." I don't know much about "signed articles" but I say other groups/articles talking about them. Tom Kelly 14:05, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

proposal: find a way for users to have "their own version" of a recipe

While we may want to have a standard version of a recipe on a dish's article page, it would be more fitting to have individual users be able to have a way to submit their own version that could be linked to the standard article. (Again, let me gripe about how I don't like how the first recipe wins - what if I don't like the pictures used? etc etc). We all agree that recipes are unique to the chef, so instead of discouraging individualism, I propose that we find a way to embrace it. A subpage dedicated to LINKING to individual's own recipes may be a way to accomplish this. This could range from external links to user pages subpages (which don't yet exist) or further subpages dedicated to individual recipes... Tom Kelly 14:11, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

Some of this was addressed in a previous section by H.P. Tom Kelly 14:20, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

maybe the Notes section could be edited by all users

Maybe the notes section (or another section yet to be made) could be editable by all so that listing minor variants could have more of a wiki feel while maintaining the individuality of the original recipe. While I would imagine the majority of the feedback should be directed to the talk page, allowing a section or two that is editable by all might be interesting. Tom Kelly 14:32, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

categories

The proposal talks about adding many categories with breadth in mind. But where will these be added? To each recipe subpage? And if so are we supposed to be using categories for this purpose or related articles? Chris Day 06:53, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

The categories will be added at the bottom of the recipe template. These aren't going to be wiki-categories like the workgroups. They will include things such as "Pasta, Vegetarian, Italian cuisine" and so on, with the ability to click on any of those and go to an article about that broad category of food. --Todd Coles 18:17, 28 March 2008 (CDT)

That makes sense, but who will actually decide, and implement, whatever text goes there? For instance, under Brisket, who puts in Texas, Barbecue, Braised, Etc, and under Bolognese, who puts in Italian, Pasta, and so forth? I've always been a little confused about this catalog/category business....Hayford Peirce 22:22, 28 March 2008 (CDT)

I would say, in lieu of having food editors to do that, that might be another field open to general editing. For example, if you look at tartiflette you'll see that when I slapped the template on it I put French cuisine on there. of course, a debate which we haven't had yet is, how do we develop the "categories" list that is already started on this page? --Todd Coles 22:28, 28 March 2008 (CDT)

subpage

I added a "recipes" subpage to the {{subpages}} template so you can experiment and build some examples for proof of concept. Chris Day 06:56, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

Calling all experts

We're getting a lot of detail and taking up many questions here. This is generally good, because we will be able to answer all the questions a recipe-adder might have. But I think also that settling on many rules at this point might cause us to commit to something that food specialists (chefs, whoever) might balk at. You know...with the exception of Hayford and maybe a few others, we're amateurs, however much we might pride ourselves on our cooking...so I think it would be a very good idea if we tried to get some professional input on questions that need professional input. This is just a suggestion. I have a friend who teaches food science; I'll ask her for her input. You might ask your chef friends, or post on a mailing list... Don't get me wrong now people :-) I'm not wanting to discourage anyone. I love that we're moving forward with this so well! But if we can get input from experts, that would be great--that's all I'm saying. --Larry Sanger 10:13, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

Yes, I think we have more than enough rules at the moment. In theory I'm a guy who kinda likes rules, and order, and precision and planning for the future. But as I've said a couple of times regarding a couple of points that have been brought up in the on-going recipe discussion, "Let's wait and see. If this situation (or problem) eventually arises, let's take care of it then." I still feel that way -- the basic structure is here, due to a lot of work and creative thought by other people, and the whole thing seems ready to fly RIGHT NOW. Chris has apparently just come up with the long-awaited subpage tab and right now you can go to Tartiflette, click on the Recipes tab at the top right of the page and, sure enough, you will be at Tartiflette/Recipes looking at a recipe! A great start! Hayford Peirce 12:57, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

I just started to write a mail to my food expert friend, and it occurred to me I couldn't simply send her to CZ:Recipes, because she wouldn't make heads or tails of it. What I need is a list of questions that we would like the opinion of a food experts about. What questions should I ask my friend, folks? --Larry Sanger 10:20, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

Geez, I don't know, Larry. Unless you want her opinion on nutrional issues, and how that stuff should be displayed, or about raw materials such as how wheat is grown, or milled into flour, and, I suppose, all sorts of other issues involving health and diet, I don't see what more there is to do. The recipe structure seems to be pretty well set up, the Meta-index, as Aleta called it, is in place and appears to me to be pretty standard in its formatting and inclusiveness, at least if you compare it to the other indexes, of which I gave 3 or 4 examples. Recipe formatting in the English-speaking world is now pretty standard, at least within 3 or 4 general concepts, I suppose, and there's nothing at all unusual about the couple of recipes that I have already put in. Short of having a laboratory technician actually cook one of these recipes, then (by magic, I guess), figure out the calories per serving, and the nutritional info per serving, I don't see what more she could add to the info that we give (or propose to give) in one of our recipes. I could, however, easily be missing something here, as I was up unusually early this morning because of a neighbor's barking dog (grrrrrrrrr!) and my head isn't really firing on all cylinders.... Hayford Peirce 13:07, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

I would just ask them to look over the page and weigh in with their opinions on it. Or better yet, get a CZ account and apply to be a food science editor and come talk to us directly. :) --Todd Coles 19:06, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

Subpage tab question

Now that Chris has got at least one tab up and working at Tartiflette and Tartiflette/Recipes (thanks muchly, by the way!), and has actually transferred the tartiflette recipe from the body of the article into the new tabbed page, do we want to put a little notice at either the very top of the article, or at the very bottom of the article, something along the lines of:

• Click on the "Recipes" tab at the upper right to find a representative recipe.
  

My own feeling is that the easier we make it for the reader to find the recipes the better. Hayford Peirce 13:17, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

Have a look at Tartiflette now. And hamburger for that matter. Is that what you had in mind? It can show up when ever there is a recipe subpage. Chris Day 13:57, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

Hey, great! That's just what I meant. Except that if someone clicks on the word Recipes (in red) in the new notice, that takes them to a blank page. I think that the link on that word should be removed -- it is enough to merely tell people that by clicking on the Tab that they'll find the recipe. Hayford Peirce 14:04, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

I mispelled the link which is why it went to a non existent page. Anyway, I've removed it now. If you want it to say or look different just type it in this talk page and i can transfer it over. Unless you want to tty yourself. The template is {{Article Specific}}. Chris Day 14:12, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

Another tab question, a more important one

If someone goes to Recipes and sees that Tartiflette is listed there standing all alone, with no commentary, meaning that an actual recipe exists, then clicks on the link, he is now taken to the tartiflette *article*. There is, of course, now a Tab to then take her to the actual recipe Tartiflette/Recipes, but do we

• Want to do it this way?
• Or do we want to rewrite the link in the Index with pipes in order to take him/her directly to the recipe?

I can argue it either way but I think that this is a pretty important question that ought to be settled, then engraved in stone, before we have too many recipes listed in the index that might need modification.... Hayford Peirce 13:25, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

I'd say go to the main article. The recipe tab should be fairly obvious now the header is present. If you want one click convenience though, you should pipelink. Another solution would be to have a small template to test for whether the recipe is present or not. If so it would link to the recipe page, if not it would link to the article page. This would save you updating the links as the number of recipes expands. Chris Day 14:17, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

How about these random links from the recipe page.

T

• Tagliatelle—article only, no recipe but many photographs
• Tartiflette

V

• Veal
  • Osso buco—article only, no recipe but many photographs
  • Veal stew—see Blanquette de veau (old-fashioned French veal stew)
  • Vitello tonnato—article only, no recipe
• Vitello tonnato—article only, no recipe

A red link should mean no article, as usual, a "dark red" link (or what ever color you wish) represents a recipe is linked and the usual blue link denotes a link to the article, no recipes subpage. Make sense? Chris Day 14:34, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

OK, clearly need a bit of trouble shooting. Chris Day 14:35, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

Blue = to main article, bold gray = to recipe, red=no article and black means not linked. Chris Day 14:50, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

Or whatever you wish. For usage use the following formatt. {{rp|Tartiflette}} = Tartiflette or {{rp|Osso buco}} = Osso buco Chris Day 14:53, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

I think that's a *wonderful* suggestion. I'd leave it just the way it is, with the direct link to the recipe in black. Perfect! Hayford Peirce 15:21, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

We can always change the colors later. The beauty of templates is you don't have to undo all the original linking work to change the style, you just adjust the template. Chris Day 15:27, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

Agreed this is a good idea - but not black, it will make people think the word is just bolded. Need to use something distinct, like green. And by the way, thanks for getting this up and running, Chris. --Todd Coles 19:10, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

I don't like the color that much either (and the bold does not work too well). I thought of green but realised red and green are a bad match for those that are color blind. On the other hand I'd hope there are few red links. It will be easy to find a good combination and it can be done at any time. Chris Day 21:07, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

quality control

I think it would be appropriate to have a specific statement about the standards for approval of this material. Being a qualified expert in food science does not necessary make you an expert cook. And I notice we do not yet have any food science editors--perhaps some of the people in that workgroup as authors are qualified, but I haven't checked for that. But it is my impression that the normal standard for verification of recipes requires their practical testing, and I wonder if we are prepared to do this adequately. I see this as more problematic for this sort of material than for data in other subjects, because of the relative scarceness of reliable modern Public Domain material. DavidGoodman 21:47, 25 April 2008 (CDT)

What type of qualifications for approval would you like to see? I do have some concerns that recipe pages might become bloated, which we've tried to crack down on with our policy toward distinct recipes.

I disagree that a person has to cook a specific recipe to be able to validate the authenticity of it. A food science editor is going to have the knowledge of what ingredients compliment each other and what will be produced from various cooking techniques. Furthermore, I don't think you will ever find one perfect recipe - everyone has different tastes, and it is the nature of recipes to be shared with other people and modified to suit individual tastes.

As far as copyright vs. public domain recipes, it's my understanding from reading various sources that unless we are copying cookbooks verbatim we're not in any danger of violations. The US Copyright Office states that ingredient lists cannot be protected, and only if there is substantial literary expression in the form of directions can it qualify for protection.[1] The Washington Post has an interesting article about all of this, here. I think it would be wise to attribute the source, using the suggestions in the article, when we do know where it came from. --Todd Coles 11:53, 27 April 2008 (CDT)

as that article says, a list of ingredients is much less than a recipe. Are you planning then to publish lists of ingredients, or recipes? A list of standard ingredients for something is part of the article, since otherwise it may not really clear what is being talked about. I am very much opposed to proceeding further unless we have some actual experts available. DavidGoodman 22:58, 27 April 2008 (CDT)

My understanding is that recipes are going to be recipes, not lists of ingredients, except inasmuch as recipes obviously have lists of ingredients. It is impossible to list, beyond a certain point, a "standard" list of ingredients for *any* recipe. For a hamburger, sure, "ground beef". But what about salt and pepper and all the other stuff people use in burgers? "I am very much opposed to proceeding further unless we have some actual experts available." I don't want to sound grouchy about this, even though I am, but please give me the name of even *one* "actual expert" whose expertise you would trust in this matter. Julia Child? James Beard? Harold McGee, the reigning scientific food expert/writer? Is he gonna come in here and spend the rest of his life (for free!) vetting food articles? I don't think you're being realistic here unless you can make some concrete suggestions.... Hayford Peirce 23:21, 27 April 2008 (CDT)

As the Driver of the proposal, I had put it to the Editorial Council for adoption by acclamation by May 02, 2008. However, if required, a vote may be taken in the Council. Supten Sarbadhikari 00:20, 28 April 2008 (CDT)

What David Goodman is talking about is why I have in the past argued that no recipe should be the making of a CZ contributor, unless that contributor is also eminent in his or her field. What needs to be published, under fair use, is iconic recipes or otherwise scholarly recipes from scholarly sources. Stephen Ewen 01:42, 28 April 2008 (CDT)

I have to admit that I don't see the rationale for CZ to be a compendium of recipes. As Stephen mentions, the seminal version of a recipe (provided the copyright stuff works out) would make a certain sense in an encyclopedia, as would a single, representative recipe (in most cases) to be read in conjunction with the article. I don't see why it makes more sense to have seven different mai tai recipes; to my mind, it would make more sense to have the two original recipes, and then a discussion (in the text of the article) of the way mai tais have evolved over the years.

I don't think the issue with this proposal is getting a Food Science editor, or an expert chef, or even Harold McGee. We need someone who has the knowledge of an expert, but also a good sense of the way wikis work. Adding some recipes makes sense, but adding a bunch (and making it formal policy, natch!) seems like the bad kind of mission creep. Brian P. Long 09:57, 28 April 2008 (CDT)

The rationale is obvious to me: CZ is a reference resource; recipes are items of information that one might expect to find in a reference resource. This doesn't constitute "mission creep" except insofar as you think the entire Subpages framework constitutes mission creep; that framework allows us to incorporate all sorts of reference material in an orderly fashion.

I think the request that a food expert examine and approve this "project" is reasonable. I do not understand why anyone would suggest that recipes may be included only if they are from a person (or source) which is "eminent in his or her [or its] field." We make no such requirement of few other features of CZ: why should it be different in this case? What we need are people who will approve recipes as being representative (or whatever we're looking for) recipes of such-and-such a dish. Otherwise, you can expect that we will have almost no recipes submitted, and in that case, there is no point to the project at all. --Larry Sanger 12:56, 28 April 2008 (CDT)

How well you explain my own thoughts! Thanks! It encourages me to go on.... Hayford Peirce 14:04, 28 April 2008 (CDT)

Larry does indeed appear to discuss the project's mission creep...into amateurism. Now we are encouraging Mrs. Unknown Mom to place her original recipes for some dish into encyclopedia articles...and he expects that culinary experts, where one's name is the gold currency, are going to want to "approve" that sort of thing...by attachment of their names??? Don't kid yourself. Articles here should contain original recipes ("original" as in first ever published) or famous recipes or iconic recipes from expert-written and expertly published sources. That one would even need to argue this causes concern. Maybe Larry simply does not understand that real scholarship does go on in the culinary arts--that it has its own journals, for example--so his perspective is just limited here; although, he is arguing a case nonetheless. Stephen Ewen 15:10, 28 April 2008 (CDT)

I think Steve makes a perfectly valid point; and there's some supporting evidence that even Hayford has (intentionally or unintentionally) created: articles of items that were devised by Don the Beachcomber(?)--if he is notable (I don't have that much exposure to this field) then it is perfectly acceptable to have his recipies in CZ, and that should be the example we follow. --Robert W King 13:03, 29 April 2008 (CDT)\

The Don the Beachcomber articles are great.  :-) Stephen Ewen 13:30, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

My point is, that should be the standard we set for recipe articles. At least. --Robert W King 13:36, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

All I can say is that there aren't going to be very many articles then. I, for instance, am not (and I've already explained this before in other discussions) going to find an iconic recipe (and we'll say for the sake of argument, that anything Julia Child, James Beard, Marcella Hazen, Jacques Pepin, Charley Trotter, Escoffier, etc. etc. has published in a book has an "iconic" status) and then SIT AT MY COMPUTER AND FAITHFULLY COPY OUT THE EXACT LIST OF INGREDIENTS, and then REWRITE THE ENTIRE INSTRUCTION part of the recipe -- so that copyright isn't infringed. I'm just not going to do it. And neither is anyone else. An example: all the classic French brown sauces are made starting with a so-called "mother sauce", which, according to Escoffier, takes about 4 days to make. And that's just the start! If you're not a professional chef, reading recipe shorthand, it takes *thousands* of words to describe the entire process that Escoffier goes through. Probably, somewhere in French, one could find an out-of-copyright description of this recipe that could be simply transcribed. Otherwise it would have to be rewritten from scratch. I'm not going to do it, and no one else is, either. I *do*, however, have dozens, even *hundreds* of recipes that I have gathered from all over AND have already rewritten in my own words and put into computerised form. Almost ALL of these are examples of standard recipes from all over the world. Almost any of them could have a separate ARTICLE written about them, with the recipe then being an EXAMPLE of the article. I've said it before, several times, I think, and I'll say it one last time here: NO RECIPE SHOULD BE ENTERED IN CZ UNLESS IT IS PART OF AN ARTICLE! This will keep CZ from being turned into a blogger's paradise for inserting Mom's Peanut Butter Sandwich recipe. An editor, or workgroup, will just delete that recipe. BUT, since this IS supposed to be a repository for knowledge, what is wrong with having 12, 15, or even 20 recipes for Bolognese sauce, pray tell? For you non-cooks out there, there probably really are 20 different (and distinct!) ways of making a delicious Bolognese. I myself would *love* to find a single source for 20 them. Larry has indicated that *he* would consider this a Good Thing. I'm not saying that Recipe #9 says two pounds ripe tomatoes, and Recipe #10 is identical except it says *one* pound ripe tomatoes. But maybe Recipe #10 doesn't use tomatoes at all! This is an authentic and valid distinction. Probably every recipe in the world has numerous interesting variations. As long as there are hard-working people willing to put them into CZ-type standards and conventions, I can't see why you don't think they should be included? Within CONTEXT, not just listed.... Hayford Peirce 15:10, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

Maybe only approved food articles then should be allowed to have recipes? This would surely control what is allowed and what isn't; a total catch-all to ensure that Mrs Jane Doe Housewife isn't planning to upload her entire motherly cookbook to CZ. --Robert W King 15:20, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

I would almost certainly agree with *that*, PROVIDED we had one, two, three, eight, ten Food Science Editors who could be counted on to approve (or disapprove) an article/recipe within a very reasonable amount of time. Otherwise, what *would* happen if Jan Doe, say, joined CZ, and wrote, first, a nice article about Apple pie, then added 4 different recipes to the article, one from Martha Washington, one from the Andrew Jackson White House, one from James Beard, and one from a trendy new restaurant in NYC, courtesy of the NYT? In other words, she has written a very worthwhile article. But, as the situation now stands, there *are* no food Editors. Would that article (and recipes) just sit there? Would a constable come along and delete the article? Or just delete the recipes, leaving the article? Or what? Hayford Peirce 17:46, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

I don't know if there is precedent for this in Citizendium policy, but would it be possible for the official policy to be that only approved articles may have recipes (thus assuring quality in some way) but to ignore this policy for the present? If a food editor arrives on the scene, they can begin to make the important determinations of what recipes to append to articles (and I imagine having some recipes on hand will be useful); if large numbers of inferior recipes are submitted, we have a fall-back position and can enforce the policy more rigorously. Or maybe folks think this is cutting off your nose to spite your face? Thanks, Brian P. Long 20:30, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

I can think of no other situation where we censor information from unapproved article, only to add the information upon approval. I don't understand the benefit of doing this. Even if someone adds a ton of recipes, it's still an unapproved article, and decisions can be made by an editor when it comes time for approval. --Todd Coles 11:10, 30 April 2008 (CDT)

I suppose we had better come up with a firm policy here, and then start enforcing it, although I certainly don't know what the mechanism would be. For instance, I've been writing throughout the comments that all the recipes we've so far added have been within the context of articles, ie, there was a Bolognese sauce article before there was a recipe, ditto for Mai tai, and most of the others. But I now see that a couple of recipes such as Chili-mac (vegetarian) have been created without being within the context of an article. They seem to be fine recipes and I don't think it would take much trouble to create an article around them, but they involve foods that I don't eat myself and know almost nothing about. So, in theory, I would think that the creator of the recipes ought to write an encompassing article. I'm not suggesting that the present recipes should be deleted, but I do think that we should have a policy in place just in case, as Stephen worries, Mary Jane Housewife appears here with 50,000 recipes from Gramma.... Hayford Peirce 12:25, 30 April 2008 (CDT)

English standard

Should recipe names always be titled in English even if they may be commonly known in another language? Meg Ireland 19:34, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

Please give us some examples. Right now the Recipes index is *very* thoroughly cross-referenced, so that Bolognese sauce or Bearnaise, for example, can be found under three or four names each. I personally don't think that in an English encyl. Bearnaise sauce should have as its article title Sauce Béarnaise. There are lotsa redirects to handle this sort of thing. But if you can give us some other examples, I'll be happy to say I'm wrong.... Piroski, maybe, and not Boiled Russian Dumpling? Sure. But I think that any recipe for piroski or stuff like that would be in the commonly known name anyhow.... Hayford Peirce 21:00, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

Bagna càuda - Italian hot sauce, Baccalà alla Vicentina - stockfish, Carciofi alla giudia - Jewish artichokes, Grüne Soße - Green sauce, Blutwurst - blood sausage.... Meg Ireland 01:27, 30 April 2008 (CDT)

I think all of these could be listed in the Recipes index with their foreign names, as well as their English ones, although Carciofi alla giudia might be called "Jewish-style artichokes" or "Deep-fried artichokes". And Blutwurst would probably have "German" attached to the "blood sausage", since other languages and cuisines also make blood sausages. And there would be appropriate redirects for any of these items. I really don't think there's a problem here. The Beef bouguignon recipe will eventually have 5 or 6 different entries, for instance.... Hayford Peirce 11:57, 30 April 2008 (CDT)

I would say that if it's most well known in the original language (e.g. Calimari), use the original language, with a redirect from the translation. The one thing I think is ugly is to combine them both in the title (e.g. "Blutwurst (German blood sausage)". It's not needed for searching (if the article text gives the translation in the first sentence, as it should, search will find it easily), and it's just clunky. J. Noel Chiappa 19:41, 30 April 2008 (CDT)

I didn't mean in the title -- I meant in the Recipes index! Hayford Peirce 20:48, 30 April 2008 (CDT)

To chime in belatedly (and this seems to be the consensus), I think there are compelling reasons for having the article live at the foreign-language name (and likewise in the index), and mainly for reasons of clarity. This is not to deny that there may be political issues in doing so: that, for example, if we name our article 'Blutwurst', we may be slighting the Czech blood sausage makers just across the border. In most cases, though, these issues will not come up or can be side-stepped fairly easily. Brian P. Long 10:44, 3 May 2008 (CDT)

You mean, I take it, that an item such as Ratatouille, for which there really is no English equivalent, will be the name of both the article *and* the recipe. I certainly agree with that. Other than that, I'm not clear as to what you propose. My own feeling is that if we had enough people of different interests writing enough articles, we would have both articles and recipes for Blutwurst, Boudin noir, Blood pudding (or Black pudding, I guess), and maybe just a general article called Blood sausage, which would have links to all of the others. And the Recipe Index would be copiously cross-referenced. Just the way there might also be separate articles about Knockwurst, Bratwurst, Frankfurters, Colmars, and all the millions of other sausages in the world. Probably not, but *theoretically*.... Hayford Peirce 11:45, 3 May 2008 (CDT)

Sure, having separate articles on Blutwurst/Boudin noir/etc. was what I glossed over with "easily side-stepped." Restricting recipe names/article titles to English is the kind of bad editorial practice we should eschew. Brian P. Long 12:10, 3 May 2008 (CDT)

Would someone PLEASE help me!

A couple of days ago I posted a request in the Forum, asking for someone to explain to me how I could add a Recipes Tab at the top of any given article -- it obviously can be done, but I certainly can't figure out how, although I have now spent a lot of time switching back and forth between the metadata templates of, say, Bolognese sauce, which has a tab, and Bearnaise sauce, which doesn't. To me, the two metadata pages are absolutely identical in every way except for a few names. I have also gone to the so-called Help pages about added subpages and they are absolutely useless! On the page that apparently tells us how to add sub-subpages, which is apparently what needs to be done, it says to go to the metadata page and, at "tab1 = " to put in the name of the requested Tab. I got news for all you fans out there: there ain't not "Tab1" or "Tab2" on the metadata pages!

I gotta say that I'm feeling a little vexed about this, angry even. If adding an additional Tab at the top of the page is such a dicey thing that only a Constable, say, can do it, or an Editor, then why isn't this fact plainly stated somewhere? Disgustedly yours, Hayford Peirce 19:01, 1 May 2008 (CDT)

Hayford, I saw your request for help, and posted a reply a little over an hour after you posted your question. Seeing no further reply, I assumed my reply was adequate and thought no more of it. Disgustedly yours, J. Noel Chiappa 16:52, 3 May 2008 (CDT)

Hi, Noel, this is all very strange. The first thing I do after clicking on "Forums" is to click on "Show all new posts" or whatever it is. I did that frequently for the next day or so after posting my plea for help and nothing ever showed there. So I never bothered tracking down my message to see if anything *had* shown up. I'll do that now, however, and see if your message is there. Double-disgustedly yours, hehe! (And sorry, of course, for any confusion this has engendered.) Hayford Peirce 17:28, 3 May 2008 (CDT)

Yup, you posted your message 1 hour and 4 minutes later. Bizarre, bizarre! Hayford Peirce 17:31, 3 May 2008 (CDT)

And undoubtly the reason nobody else replied was that they saw my reply, and didn't see anything to add to it. Sigh... J. Noel Chiappa 22:41, 3 May 2008 (CDT)

"The Mysteries of the Organism" aren't even in the same league as "The Mysteries of the Net"! Cheers! Hayford Peirce 23:59, 3 May 2008 (CDT)

Hayford, see the red circled recipe link on the talk page.

Click that and you create a recipe subpage. The tab will appear if such a subpage exists. Chris Day 20:22, 1 May 2008 (CDT)

Wow, that's so simple! Once you know how.... I really don't think this is explained very well, however. I suppose that to the people who created this system it seemed so obvious that explanations were unnecessary. You gotta remember that for all of the people like me (and I think we're the majority around here) *nothing* is too simple for us not to understand! Thanks again.... Hayford Peirce 21:05, 1 May 2008 (CDT)

Think of yourself as our guinea pig. :) Chris Day 21:23, 1 May 2008 (CDT)

Guinea pigs are a national dish of Peru. There are some recipes and how to cook them here: http://www.shelfordfeast.co.uk/guineapig.html Meg Ireland 22:57, 2 May 2008 (CDT)

I'll leave it up to you, Chere Collegue, to write that article and then compose the recipe subpages! (Along with the info I saw in a Nat. Geo. article of some years ago about how giant rats were considered taste treats in the Philippines....) Hayford Peirce 23:06, 2 May 2008 (CDT)

I think I'd prefer ratatouille then a rat. I'm sure I read somehwere they only eat roasted rat as part of Chinese New Year celebrations once a year. Some origin in religion and good luck. Meg Ireland 00:08, 3 May 2008 (CDT)

Could be. I can't remember anything more than photos of ppl. on bicycles taking cages of rats to market. By the way, ratatouille is a *perfect* example of what you brought up the other day: a foreign word or phrase for a recipe. My wife loved eating and making it for years -- I can't stand the stuff. And I don't think that there's an English equivalent at all, or even a translation.... Hayford Peirce 00:46, 3 May 2008 (CDT)

Bearnaise recipe finished, comments needed on its formatting

I've pretty well wrapped up the Bearnaise sauce/Recipes recipe. I've tried to work a lot of info into the template as it exists and I'm wondering if anyone has any comments on what I've done. I stuck a bold-face note in the top of the Ingredients warning people to read the Notes first; I also made the Notes into three separate entries. And I still don't like the formatting at the top about the servings etc. I think the template needs to be tweaked.... Hayford Peirce 19:44, 3 May 2008 (CDT)

Final Recipe

The Editorial Council has adopted the Resolution 0009 and has formally requested Hayford Peirce to kindly form the designated group for the implementation of CZ:Proposals/Recipes_Subpage_and_Accompanying_Usage_Policy and CZ:Recipes. Supten Sarbadhikari 05:39, 26 May 2008 (CDT)