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| ==Material from 9-11 Attack article== | | ==Created archive 1 so focus can be on new work== |
| ''[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=9-11_Attack&diff=100139615&oldid=100139228 Richard Jensen deleted all this] from the [[9-11 Attacks]] article on 26th July 2007, so I'm archiving it here in case any comes in useful (needs work):''
| | While this is obviously a work in progress, I have created several subarticles and intend to do more, moving out some of the details. For that matter, I still have a WMD article in my sandbox. |
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| Bush went on to identify an "Axis of Evil" — Iraq, Iran and North Korea, citing the existence of their regimes as a threat to long-term global peace, which could not be assured with their capacity and incentive to make weapons of mass destruction. While Iran and North Korea have so far escaped serious intervention, Iraq was quickly identified as a clear and present threat to the rest of the world. However, the United Kingdom was the only country whose government supplied unwavering political and military support to the USA in its plans to remove the regime of Saddam Hussein; many other countries publically supported action, but stopped short of backing an invasion.
| | One of the questions, which applies to Afghanistan as well, is if and when the main "War" article should end and an article on continuing security assistance continue. After all, we aren't still writing about WWII occupation of Germany and Japan, although there are still large numbers of US troops there. Perhaps one metric might be the establishment of an elected government '''and''' the execution of a [[Status of Forces Agreement]]. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 14:42, 25 July 2009 (UTC) |
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| The U.S. and U.K governments concocted a number of controversial claims that were later found to be false and deliberately fabricated; however, they did attempt to secure a United Nations resolution permitting military action against Iraq. The authority to invade a country and topple a regime being in violation of international law, the 'Coalition of the Willing' were unable to secure broad support for the attack. America and its new coalition partners demanded that Saddam Hussein resign; when he refused they invaded Iraq and ousted him in March 2003.
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| The Coalition's invasion and occupation of Iraq, outside international law, led to other potential targets to develop alternative strategies of more constructive engagement with the rest of the world. Pakistan, which had been involved in illegal nuclear weapons proliferation and was the only country to officially recognise the Taliban, became a close ally in the war against al-Qaeda. Libya renounced its own program of building weapons of mass destruction and was welcomed back into the community of nations and the oil market; the regime of Colonel Gaddafi was left untouched, despite its consistent support for terrorism over the years and long record of human rights abuses.
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| America's willingness to act without the consent of the international community has been seena s deeply troubling for some sections of the global community, especially those whose background has much in common with the Middle East, such as many Muslims. Donald Rumsfeld's characterisation of "Old Europe" - Western European countries such as France and Germany, which opposed the invasion - and "New Europe" - America's former Communist allies in Eastern Europe - also raised hackles.
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| :Do not misunderstand my position; I consider Bush the worst President in U.S. history and this invasion to be unnecessary and certainly in vague legal terms. Nevertheless, there's editorializing here. "outside international law" or "deeply troubling" need sourcing; they are subjective judgment.
| | == all these need to be merged this main article, and the whole thing needs cleaning up == |
| | All these need to be merged this main article, and then this article needs to be cleaned up. [[User:Pat Palmer|Pat Palmer]] ([[User talk:Pat Palmer|talk]]) 09:16, 24 February 2024 (CST) |
| | * [[Iraq War, origins of invasion]] |
| | * [[Iraq War, theater operational planning]] |
| | * {[[Iraq War, major combat phase]] |
| | * [[Iraq War, insurgency]] |
| | * [[Iraq War, Surge]] |
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| :Incidentally, three, not one, nations recognized the Taliban. LOL...sometimes I even agree with Richard.[[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 09:29, 21 June 2008 (CDT) | | :I agree there should be only a single article incorporating all themes, but I recommend that the current version is scrapped and rewritten from scratch. [[User:John Leach|John]] ([[User talk:John Leach|talk]]) 07:59, 14 March 2024 (CDT) |
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| == Needs work ==
| | ::Agreed. I added this to my list of oil spills. [[User:Pat Palmer|Pat Palmer]] ([[User talk:Pat Palmer|talk]]) 08:28, 14 March 2024 (CDT) |
| This article badly needs work. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 08:15, 18 September 2007 (CDT)
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| :Couldn't agree more. I have started some work on this, but this is one big, hot potato. Keeping this NPOV will be nearly impossible, but let's try. | |
| :I have rewritten the intro and added a more substantial piece on the weapons inspections in the 1990s. I also deleted some more text about the letter to Clinton by the neoconservatives as it seemed redundant (it doesn't seem as important as to warrant that much text in the article). I'll include the deleted text here:
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| <blockquote>
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| The Project for a New American Century believed an invasion of [[Iraq]] to be necessary in September [[2000]], long before their supposed complicity in the [[9-11 Attack]]; ''While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein.''<ref>http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf A report from the Project for a New American Century in relation to rebuilding America and invading Iraq</ref>
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| </blockquote>
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| :This article still needs a lot of work, including a lot of fact checking and sourcing. Can't do it alone. [[User:Michel van der Hoek|Michel van der Hoek]] 23:07, 7 May 2008 (CDT)
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| ::I can do a bit of double checking for you if you'd like, but I've given up trying to make a neutral article on this (The original monstrosity was mine by the way :-) [[User:Denis Cavanagh|Denis Cavanagh]] 18:07, 8 May 2008 (CDT)
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| :::Thanks for the offer of help. Neutrality is almost impossible here, but if we're careful, we should be able to write something decent. The article at Wikipedia is essentially not that bad, but is riddled with bad style, tendentious statements, and ill-supported claims. We could take our cue from that article's structure and instead build it up from scratch. I would propose that we steer clear of making statements solely supported by some spare articles in some major media outlet (Time, CNN, NYT, Newsweek, etc.), or, worse still, some crank website (whether left- or right-leaning). I would say that serious scholarly work should have primacy in determining reliability of statements, which can be backed up by linking to primary sources, which, in turn, can be gleaned from the bibliographical material in the scholarly studies. (If you do this, you can also test whether the source is well-researched.) See my comment below, too. [[User:Michel van der Hoek|Michel van der Hoek]] 15:19, 9 May 2008 (CDT)
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| == Suggestions ==
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| It is said that the correct way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time. I can't speak from personal experience, as I think elephants are nice people and I'd hate to eat one.
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| In this case, to mix metaphors, the Iraq War, in its present form, feels like an elephant in the living room, with an unseen but heard herd nearby. When I speak of the "herd", "Iraq war" is ambiguous. In fairly recent history, there was the Iran-Iraq War, the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, and the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Perhaps you might back up to a "modern military history of Iraq", break out major wars, and then some discussion of alliances. The embargoes and no-fly enforcement are significant, and perhaps something about Kurdish guerilla warfare and autonomy.
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| To deal with the single elephant, there probably needs to be a separate PNAC article, a "straightforward" 9/11-related article dealing with the Afghanistan campaign, some analysis of why the Bush Administration pushed Central Command to deal with Iraq, and invasion planning (Operation POLO STEP). There was some pre-invasion maneuvering and pressure, ranging from attempting to get permission for the 4th Infantry Division to attack from Turkey, the ultimatum to Saddam to get out, and initial air strikes ("shock and awe") in contrast with the extended air campaign in 1991.
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| The conventional ground campaign is worthy of one or more articles. It's worth making the point that such a combat was what the US and UK militaries were designed to conduct. In WWII, there was a very clear distinction between combat and occupation forces, which have different training and missions. I wouldn't rule out a grand strategic analysis, perhaps drawing from Thomas Barnett, as to whether the US should have assumed his "Leviathan" role, and then turned over the "System administrator" role to a multinational force.
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| It's not inaccurate to say that the war, in terms of an action between nation-states, was relatively short. The occupation and resistance is quite a different problem.
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| In other words, try to deal with smaller pieces, preferably with an article or even talk page comments about a system of articles. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 21:48, 8 May 2008 (CDT)
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| ::I was hoping to write (with help from others!) a shorter encyclopedia article with the main facts here, in the style of a classical encyclopedia, and have link-throughs to more detailed articles about the different aspects/sections. [[User:Michel van der Hoek|Michel van der Hoek]] 15:05, 9 May 2008 (CDT)
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| == Proposed name change ==
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| I propose moving this title to [[2003 invasion of Iraq]], for several reasons.
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| First, this is ambiguous. At the very least, it needs to be disambiguated from [[1990 invasion of Kuwait]], [[Iran-Iraq war]], and a neutral name for ''just'' the 1991 ejection of Iraqis from Kuwait, perhaps under the UN resolutions. Now, there can perfectly well be short articles such as [[Operation Desert Shield]], [[Operation Iraqi Freedom]], or [[Mother of all Battles]] (well, a battle, not a war) that then point to the main, neutrally named article about the war.
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| [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 09:26, 21 June 2008 (CDT)
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| As if this had never discussed elsewhere and CZ were deciding the issue for the first time...! I would ask (in general): does this war or operation have some ''most common'' name? Or is it referred to by many different names, and we can confidently say that none has any claim to being more common or legitimate than the others? It seems to me this is something that could be empirically investigated to great effect.
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| I agree with the spirit behind "2003 invasion of Iraq": we should not presume to give names to things that do not have names yet. But I am not convinced in this case.
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| I have an independent reason against "2003 invasion of Iraq": the war is more than the 2003 invasion. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 22:04, 21 June 2008 (CDT)
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