Talk:Butler/Draft: Difference between revisions

From Citizendium
Jump to navigation Jump to search
imported>Martin Baldwin-Edwards
imported>John Stephenson
m (moved Talk:Butler to Talk:Butler/Draft over redirect: Cannot get the banner info on approved-article Talk pages to show with Citable Versions subpages, so moving this whence it came for now)
 
(119 intermediate revisions by 15 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
: Based on a discussion I read on the Approval Process page, I would request NO CHANGES in this article for the next 36-38 hours. Objections or agreements only. All the principals involved appear to believe that it is finished. If you disagree object here (with reasons). Don't edit, please!  [[User:Roger Lohmann|Roger Lohmann]] 20:02, 16 August 2007 (CDT)AS we agreed, some copy edits are needed, and I will do these, hoping that the approved page can include them. --[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 22:01, 16 August 2007 (CDT) '''DONE! No more changes to this version, please.'''--[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 23:08, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
{{subpages}}
 
----
{{ToApprove
<BR>
|url = http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Butler&diff=100151677&oldid=100151650
|now = 19:55, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
|editor= Roger Lohmann
|editor2=Martin Baldwin-Edwards
|editor3=
|editor4=
|group= Sociology
|group2=
|group3=
|date = 2007-08-18
}}
 
 
{{checklist
|                abc = Butler
|                cat1 = Sociology
|                cat2 = Anthropology
|                cat3 =
|          cat_check = n
|              status = 1
|        underlinked = n
|            cleanup = y
|                  by = [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 05:15, 13 August 2007 (CDT) [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 23:55, 24 July 2007 (CDT)
[[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 18:04, 16 July 2007 (CDT)
}}
 
== WP Author notice ==
 
{{WPauthor|In lieu of WP notice:
{{WPauthor|In lieu of WP notice:
I wrote the original for WP between January and March 2005, and edited through 2006.  There was very little imput from others, and so I am not ticking the WP box.  The reference to the story of Joseph was not part of my original draft, but since it's biblical I feel no qualms about including it, and in any case I have expanded upon the idea and included the chapter.   
I wrote the original for WP between January and March 2005, and edited through 2006.  There was very little input from others, and so I am not ticking the WP box.  The reference to the story of Joseph was not part of my original draft, but since it's biblical I feel no qualms about including it, and in any case I have expanded upon the idea and included the chapter.   
I intend to maintain this article.
I intend to maintain this article.P|
 
[[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 18:07, 16 July 2007 (CDT)}}
[[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 18:07, 16 July 2007 (CDT)}}


<!--DO NOT ARCHIVE ABOVE -->
<!-- DO NOT ARCHIVE ABOVE THIS LINE -->
 
__TOC__
 
== Re References ==
 
I don't know how to format the citations, so I just typed in numbers by hand.  If anyone can fix this before I figure it out, please do.  [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 18:08, 16 July 2007 (CDT)
 
:Done ;-) --[[User:Kjetil Ree|Kjetil Ree]] 20:07, 16 July 2007 (CDT)
 
::Aleta, download http://sunnybar.dynip.com/pub/wikicite.exe and cite away with ease. &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 22:21, 5 August 2007 (CDT)
 
== Images ==
 
* To use [http://www.istana.gov.sg/NR/rdonlyres/7B7FA307-02F9-4ED3-92FA-7E60985BA642/9335/butlers_big.jpg this] ask [http://www.istana.gov.sg/ContactInfo/index.htm these folks] by mail.
 
&nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 19:32, 10 August 2007 (CDT)
 
:It is remarkable, and perhaps a commentary, that I have been unable after several hours of searching to find photos of modern butlers in action.  I've gotten desperate and posted a message to a butler message board requesting such photos.  Keeping my fingers crossed. &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 15:18, 12 August 2007 (CDT)
 
::Obviously I found an lede image, but I think better is possible. &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 16:17, 12 August 2007 (CDT)
 
==Joseph==
:''The story of Joseph in the biblical book of Genesis contains an early reference to those in the role of butlers and stewards. Joseph, sold as a slave in Egypt, rises to become the head of Potiphar’s household staff, his chief steward, while the Pharaoh’s servant whose dream Joseph interprets has been translated into English as the chief butler.''


Even after I weakened this, this still seems like it is reading too much into the fact that, among the literal scores of English Bible translations, just ''one'' uses ''dynamic equivalence'' to translate the Hebrew word as "butler". It seems the much stronger point would be to state that the role of chief household servant has existed across many cultures since recorded history, and give various examples, including in Egypt as depicted by the image I added to the article.
==APPROVED Version 1.1==
Approved artictle, congratulations! [[User:Aleksander Stos|Aleksander Stos]] 03:54, 18 August 2007 (CDT)
<div class="usermessage plainlinks">Discussion for [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Butler&oldid=100152162 Version 1.1] stopped here. Please continue further discussion under this break. </div>


&nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 13:01, 11 August 2007 (CDT)
:For article re-approval, see [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Approval_Process#Re-approving_revisions_to_approved_articles here] for help.


:Well, first, not sure I understand--are you interpreting this as an attempt to prove that the English word "butler" has existed since the time of the pharaohs?  I had no such intent.  It's just a famous story that illustrates that such manservants were known in those times.  And it's not just ''one''--I had a quick look and the much-used Revised Standard Version uses "butler" and "chief butler" as well, as does the poetic language of the King James Version.  Not sure of your use of "dynamic equivalence"--Bible translators try to use words that have currency.  The only point I was making was that the ''position'' of butler--with its attending responsibilities has evolved out of duties that have existed for centuries.
==Well Done!==
:Whether they were called, specifically, "wine steward", "cupbearer", "steward", or "butler" makes no difference.  The point is that it is an ancient position.  I can try to make this clearer.
:[[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 18:04, 11 August 2007 (CDT)


::Go for it. :-) &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 15:06, 12 August 2007 (CDT)
Kudos to everyone who worked on this article, which definitely deserves consideration as featured article of the week. Those who still believe revisions and further refinements are necessary should make them and we can make it ready for version 1.2.
[[User:Roger Lohmann|Roger Lohmann]] 13:03, 18 August 2007 (CDT)


:::An issue is with the use of "steward".  The text tries to connect בית (bayith) with the English word "steward", but בית (bayith) is not translated as such, at least not in any of the 20 or so English Bible translations I have consulted, which includes all of the major ones.  The text says "'Steward' came to mean the person in overall charge of the estate; he managed household accounts and collected estate rents", but this seems very shaky.  ''When'' did this happen?  In the Roman Empire, for example, it already held that connotation. I've simply removed that quote from the article for now.  It does seem to read fine without it. &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 02:25, 13 August 2007 (CDT)
==Toward version 1.2==
I plan to work on material for subpages for this.  I am hoping that will even include an image gallery of modern butlers in action, if a photo request in the ''Modern Butlers' Journal'' works as hoped.  We should also add a '''Sidenote box''' on how Butler became a surname.  There is a journal article that covers this, as I recall.  &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 04:49, 19 August 2007 (CDT)


==Explaining certain text removals==
===Signed article for [[Butler]]===
I removed the emboldened part of the footnote:
[[User:Steven Ferry]] might be willing to contribute a signed article, if approached.  I think it'd be great to have an article on the specific attitudes and skills needed to be a quality butler.  Thoughts? &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 13:18, 20 August 2007 (CDT)
:Certainly, why not? 
:As an aside, I also think that since SF is the most-quoted person in the article, it should say more about his expertise than "an author".  I'd like to see an addition about his work regarding butlers in the hospitality field (as opposed to private service).
:Roger has also suggested a signed article on "The Butler Did It!" - the butler in the classic murder mystery.  I like that idea, too, if we can find someone. [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 17:38, 20 August 2007 (CDT)


:18th Century housekeepers made extra money by giving tours of the great house. See e.g. ''Pride and Prejudice'' by Jane Austen. '''It would appear that at this point in history the housekeeper still outranked the butler. An episode of the television series ''Upstairs, Downstairs'' portrays a powerful housekeeper who virtually guarantees a butler position to Angus Hudson, should he decide to accept it.'''
I just noticed this entry from 2007 August. I am happy to provide it if still required. And if someone were to explain the significance/requirements of a "signed article." [[User:Steven Ferry|Steven Ferry]] 10:23, 26 February 2008 (CST)


Explanation: I do not think we can accurately infer and generalize a ranking of butlers at this point in their history from ''Pride and Prejudice''. We'd need much firmer support. Citing ''Upstairs, Downstairs'' is a bad idea on its face, except in an article about the show.
===Diary of a butler===
See http://www.abutlersdiary.blogspot.com/ &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 01:14, 2 September 2007 (CDT)


&nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 14:48, 13 August 2007 (CDT)
==Layout on widescreen monitors==


== British English ==
See [[:Image:Butler.gif]]. Image:Pincera-schenker.jpg and the "Butlers in early America" sidenote box are forced into the middle of the screen. This should be fixed, possibly by rearranging the images and the sidenote box. [[User:Kjetil Ree|Kjetil Ree]] 07:21, 19 August 2007 (CDT)


Aleta began this in British English, and given its topic it is most fitting for it to remain as such. I have tried to write in that vein--I have been better at it in the past but am rusty.  Would someone versed please go over this American's additions to this? &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 04:01, 14 August 2007 (CDT)
:Kjetil, It's be great if you could fix this first on the draft article as soon as you can. I don't have a widescreen monitor so don't see what you see.  The current layout looks perfect on mine. &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 15:11, 19 August 2007 (CDT)


DONE (I think, subject to some simultaneous editing).--[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 02:07, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
::Well, I don't have a widescreen monitor myself. I will try to fix it the next time I use one (i.e. the next time I visit my father) [[User:Kjetil Ree|Kjetil Ree]] 12:06, 22 August 2007 (CDT)


:Thanks!  You can tell I gave up even trying some way through. :-) &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 03:17, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
:I have now fixed it (I bought a 22 inch monitor the other day). Does it still look good on smaller monitors? If so, could we update the approved version? --[[User:Kjetil Ree|Kjetil Ree]] 18:12, 27 October 2007 (CDT)


::No problem. I didn't deal with references though: what is that mess at the beginning of Ref 12? --[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 03:44, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
== Emily Post... ==


:::<<CHUCKLE>> - That mess is cleaned up. &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 16:07, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
...was long dead by 1997, so she didn't write anything.  That should be changed *immmediately*, before this gets feature-of-the-week status.  The original citation was correct for the edition by Elizabeth L. Post (Peggy, I think)  If an updated edition is to be cited, please check a) the author (there are now several Post heirs writing Emily Post's etiquette) b) the date c) that the material quoted made it into this edition. [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 17:28, 20 August 2007 (CDT)


==Okay, I'm basically done==
:If you look on Googlebook you will find several books with the same title. The one dated 1997 has Emily Post as author, along with Peggy Post. I suppose this means that the reference is not too bad, and we can be forgiven for omitting a second author of the same family name... But it should bge corrcted for the next version.--[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 17:39, 20 August 2007 (CDT)
Like the heading says.   
::????  I know there were several books with the same title.  The point is that at least two prior editions gave Elizabeth L. Post as the author; the books had many quotes from Emily's original work.  Do you have a copy of the cover?  Unless this was a reprint, or a special combined thingy--like that constructed video of Natalie Cole singing with her father--I don't care what Googlebooks said: Mrs Emily Post was deceased.  [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 17:49, 20 August 2007 (CDT)


Left to do is:  
:::Aleta: the date of publication has nothing to do with whether the author is alive or dead! This is a small problem, honestly.--[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 18:04, 20 August 2007 (CDT)


* Copyediting
::::I must've just gotten off the bus in The Twilight Zone.  I'm questioning the ''authorship'', Martin! I give up.  Who *is* on first? [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 18:50, 20 August 2007 (CDT)
* Going over the Intro - that's always best when gone over last of all
* A bibliography of relevant books
* Creating [[Catalog of butlers and valets]] to replace all the "lists" info I removed
* I also plan to create a brief article for [[Robert Roberts]], the African American butler I added info about
* Tidying a few things here and there
* Formatting all of the references properly
* Bolstering two of the image upload pages
* Critiquing of the material I added (or removed)!


This has been a learning experience for me about this topic. I never intended to write much about it but, for whatever reasons, got caught in.
Aleta, I have already told you that it is jointly authored. The fact that an author is dead has no relation to the date of publication. The book is an edited reprint of an earlier book by Emily Post, and is not correctly referenced on the page but it is a minor error which should be corrected in the next approved version. --[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 19:43, 20 August 2007 (CDT)


&nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 04:35, 14 August 2007 (CDT)
:All I can say is that I have held a different notion as to what an "edited reprint" is.  This still has no bearing on your having dismissed what I think is the more pressing issue; that the 1997 edition may not contain the cited material. Then again, it may.  I don't know.  Do you? [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 17:40, 21 August 2007 (CDT)
::Oh, my!  Where to start??? 
::I have no idea. Who put the material here?--[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 22:35, 21 August 2007 (CDT)
::Your recent additions and deletions are certainly making me stretch my brain.  Some of your changes are excellent, Stephen; a lot are good points of departure for other articles but probably don't belong here. I am less convinced by others.  In general, I'm concerned about adding a sentence or two about this or that without context.
::*You've had a tendency to toss in names of those you've quoted without identifying them.  Sure, I know who Ferry and Puckrein are, but will the casual reader?  And why Ferry, out of a score of butlers-turned-entrepreneurs?  Or, why not Ferry--he actually takes the "service" attitude quite seriously, and the niche he created was in non-residential butlers, which is what I wanted to mention.  I'm not sure I get this out of the present text.
::*Slaves--well, if we're going to open this can of worms, we have to do it convincingly.  This now reads like 21st Century perception based on a 19th Century institution, which will not do if we're talking about ancient slaves. "Uneducated"? I don't think so--the ancient world had a much more fluid understanding about slaves, slaves were acquired in all sorts of ways and came from what we would call differing classes, and they would have had to had skills commensurate with their responsibility.  In some countries male slaves could have been quite well-educated compared to other sectors of society, in the same way that black workers under apartheid had to be increasingly better educated. I'd rather be a slave to a clement Roman or African master than an inclement 18-19th Century Russian or American one.
::*African-American butler sits like a non-sequitur, quite out of time sequence.  Why single out a) American b) black--there's a lot to be said about immigrant service in general, particularly European indentured servitude. We could write a whole "History of American Domestic Service". 
::*We now have a paragraph that gives lip service to gender issues but doesn't quote or refer to any specific women.  Doesn't work for me as a concept.
::*I think you're making a mountain out of an Egyptian molehill with Joseph.  Mention in passing and leave it alone.  More on bible translations later.
::*Sorry, we have to lose the picture of Jeeves. I intend to write [[valet]]; let's put it there.
::I'll start with these
::[[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 18:34, 14 August 2007 (CDT)


Aleta, some of the changes you are making are contradicted by the varied literature I used to write what I did. &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 19:59, 14 August 2007 (CDT)
[[User:Richard Jensen]] did.  BTW, I have a book here by an author published 14 years after that author's death. &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 02:46, 22 August 2007 (CDT)


:Specifically, we must differentiate between household butlers during the Medieval era and the position "butler" as a member of the royal courts. Numerous sources, including EB, make a clear distinction here. The latter was a powerful governmental official who only ''nominally'' had charge of the wine, while it was the primary duty of houesehold butlers. &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 20:37, 14 August 2007 (CDT)
:Yes, otherwise why would we see things like "W. Shakespeare (1967): ''Much Ado about Nothing''." ? The date of publication is determined by the publisher, whose decision is itself determined by copyright ownership agreements. In the case of edited reprints, it is a bit messy. I think this case has the daughter's name first, and the original author as second: so, our reference is technically not correct but is not so badly wrong as to worry about too much. I will ask Jensen about it. --[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 02:57, 22 August 2007 (CDT)


::''Must'' we?  Why?  This is an article about household butlers not e.g. Butlerage and Prisage. If you're talking about all those titles like "Chief Candlestick in Waiting" and Equerry this, that and the other and various "D'Honneur" and "Master of the Horse...Hounds..blah blah" we'll be here for ever.  That's another article.
::For G** sake, I never said that no one's work could ever be published posthumously.  [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 17:11, 22 August 2007 (CDT)


::But in any case, it's moot now because I think the wording you have there now is fine. Really! :)
:It's fixed, ready for the next approved version. &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 18:48, 22 August 2007 (CDT)
::[[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 01:15, 15 August 2007 (CDT)


:::It's an article about "Butler".  I included one sentence differentiating the Medieval era household butler with his counterpart    who enjoyed substantial governmental power as a member of Crown administration, with only nominal care over wine stores. &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 01:51, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
== Starkey ==


:Also, שקה (shaqah) is ''not'' a title.  It was a description of the dutied carried out by the Egyptian butler. &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 21:07, 14 August 2007 (CDT)
I still object strongly to the wording of that sentence regarding complaints about Starkey.  If there are "numerous complaints", there should also be numerous citations. If people with first hand knowledge are unwilling to put their names to their complaints, then why is CZ doing so, as if ''we'' had first hand knowledge?  That is poor scholarship. [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 17:41, 20 August 2007 (CDT)
::I'm not arguing the word, just the clumsiness of the present sentence.  I'm asking ''what is it''?  A noun?  An adjective?  A position?  Just the description of duties is not "a" shaqah. Do you mean the man who was the shaqah or the man who performed the shaquah? We can't write "Pharaoh's "to give to drink". this is not a big deal, it just needs a light c.e. and I can't think of a good phrasing just at the mo.
::[[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 01:15, 15 August 2007 (CDT)


:::Wording simply ''cannot'' be altered for readability when it changes the ''meaning''.  It is simply erroneous to imply that שקה (shaqah) was a Hebrew ''translation'' of a term for an Egyptian title; it merely ''described'', the main duty of the person.  I have crafted wording so it does not imply this. &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 01:51, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
:Read the article cited.  Count the number of former employees interviewed.  "Numerous" is a fair term to describe the number.  This story is ''not'' going to be the sort of story that national press picks up, because this is a specialized topic.  It is covered only because the schol is in the region of the publication.  It is the difference between making editorial decisions between material on [[Oprah Winfrey]], who is known globally, and Starkey who is known only to those in a specialized industry and within a region apart from those in that industry.  One cannot apply the Oprah standard to the Starkey article--this should go completely without saying, as well as that some former employees would wish to remain unnamed due to retaliation issues, which are a very, very real concern at times, having lived through such things myself as a [[whistle-blower]].  Besides, if one knows how the press operates...one outlet picks up on something ''and then'' the hundreds of others do, so it becomes more complex at evaluating "multiple articles", with multiplicity often meaning nothing but that others want to cash in.  A Reuters article I was once interviewed for--the article, or info from it, was covered in HUNDREDS of major and many more minor outlets, but I was only interviewed once.  '''The core question is: is the article about Starkey credible?''' Very clearly, it is.  If it were not, Starkey herself would not even appear in it to try to respond to the criticisms!  Not recognizing that evaluating a source hinges on a veritable complex of factors rather simplistic criteria of "did they all give their names?", period, and "did it get reported more than once", period, is where poor scholarship comes in. I'd expect that sort of thinking at WP ("must be the subject of multiple reports", yada yada), but here we can apply more sophisticated criteria.  Moreover, NOT making brief mention of the criticisms, as if we were to say "we have knowledge better and on the contrary", is where irresponsibility would come in. &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 02:15, 22 August 2007 (CDT)


Jeeves - I can find no other picture that depicts the fictional butler in a humorous way. &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 03:34, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
::Stephen, you've completely missed the point and gone off on tangents.  It is not about whether or not we report what has been said, it is about stating that we know for a fact that what has been said is true. And I did, actually, read the article.  [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 17:15, 22 August 2007 (CDT)
:Jeeves is a valet.  And we have to have a picture that depicts a butler in a humourous way because why?  Leave it if you wish, but I don't see why it's necessary.  [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 18:11, 16 August 2007 (CDT)


== Large households ==
:::What I have said goes to the heart of the matter.  Look at it this way: The program has been criticized.  Do you doubt this? &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 17:59, 22 August 2007 (CDT)
I think this is wrong, saying that butlers are senior servants in "large households". I stayed in [[Al Capp]]'s NYC apartment in the early 1960s, for instance, and he had a butler. But absolutely no other servants.  He had a cooking-serving lady at his Cambridge home but the NYC butler never had anything to do with the Cambridge establishment. So I think this opening sentence should be modified. {{unsigned|Hayford Peirce}}
:Was it a butler, a houseman, a housekeeper or a valet?  Which was his primary residence?  I doubt you'd have any butler today calling himself a "junior servant", whether or not he had direct supervisory authority.  Still, the word has fluid enough usage and I take your point.  It depends on what era and nowadays to a large extent on perspective.  I will modify accordingly. [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 18:40, 14 August 2007 (CDT)
::Already appropriately fixed. [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 18:42, 14 August 2007 (CDT)


== Image mix-up ==
::In a word, "no".  [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 00:50, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
There's an image mix-up.  The article has one pic from the Ferry source, but if you click on it, you get the former picture.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:42, 15 August 2007 (CDT)


:You just gotta clear you cache. Hit CTL F5 on the image page. &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 16:10, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
==Gallery==
[[Image:Magnums_Butlers_May_2006.jpg|thumb|right|150px]]
A courtesy request for photos for a gallery of modern butlers in action will go out in the next issue of ''Modern Butlers’ Journal'', due out in 3 weeks. &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 00:26, 23 August 2007 (CDT)


== Need clarification from an American historian ==
:Well, that's jolly nice of them, I must say.  Good thinking, 99!  [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 00:53, 23 August 2007 (CDT)


Does the Edwardian Age in England correspond best with the Guilded Age or the Progressive Age in the U.S.? [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 18:45, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
::...and it is slated to contain a link to ''this'' article. 8-) &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 01:49, 23 August 2007 (CDT)


:Progressive, more or less. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 19:08, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
:::I have four images from Jospehine Ive.  I've uploaded one so far. &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 03:40, 10 September 2007 (CDT)


European, too.
::::http://www.modernbutlers.com/MBJVol3Iss3.pdf [[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 20:03, 18 October 2007 (CDT)


"The class system was at its most inflexible" during the Edwardian period?  "From the Georgian era through the nineteenth century, societal changes brought about by the [[Industrial Revolution]] led to increased stratification and a deepening of class division"? Aleta, where are you getting this from. It is just erroneous. Stratification was worse then during Feudalism??  Hardly. I have simply reverted this material for now.  Let's look at sources carefully and see, will do that later tonight. &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 21:17, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
==Butlering in India==
* http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2761689.stm &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 17:48, 28 August 2007 (CDT)  


::I think it is unwise to talk about stratification in the transition from feudalism to capitalism: our knowledge is impressionistic and without real measurements. In the UK, industrialisation created the new cities in order to house factory workers who had previously been starving peasants, and was thus an improvement in quality of life for them. On the other hand, their living and working conditions were bad, and capitalism allowed upward class mobility as it was the bourgeoisie who set up factories and not the aristocracy. How to characterise this complex change? Don't try!--[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 22:34, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
== What was the classical butler paid ==
There's no mention at all of what butlers in the good old days were paid. Surely they didn't work for free?  Certainly something more than just room and board.  But what could they spend their money on?  They didn't apparently have much time off.  Seems to me that in British novels there were occasional references to so-and-so the butler, who, upon retirement, bought a modest pub in the neighborhood and reigned there thereafter. In fact, the whole question of salaries in great houses, of, let's say the high Victorian era, ought to be the focus of an article.  Here we've got a house with Mama and Papa and four kids and maybe *18* servants to take care of them. What on earth are they being paid? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 18:55, 28 August 2007 (CDT)


:::Precisely. &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 10:08, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
:Found and added info from the Victorian era. [[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 04:19, 31 May 2008 (CDT)


::::I appreciate and agree with Martin's comments above, but I'm talking about the modern class system. It is simply not true to say that the butler became a senior male servant during the 19th Century.  That had happened during the Georgian period.  I have never in all my chequered career had anyone argue that the English industrial revolution didn’t lead to great societal changes, or that new social classes did not develop.  Of course they did. How is that not stratification?
==External link==
* http://www.magnumsbutlers.com/ is a link we should add for the training section for the next version.  The is also a Butler training academy in China, I will find again later.  Also http://www.magnumsbutlers.com/storeProducts.asp contains a book or two we should mention. &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 03:21, 10 September 2007 (CDT)


::::Beginning with the agricultural revolution in the 1700s (and philosophers would probably argue earlier, for various reasons) then changes in manufacturing and industry—mills, factories, rapidly increasing population, rapid growth in and of cities—you had a ''completely new working class'', and an increasingly diverse and powerful middle class—these are givens; I’m not making it up as I go along.  I cannot believe you’re actually asking me to debate or prove this.  Are you suggesting that all these classes and conditions suddenly appeared out of nowhere in the Victorian period?  Because that's what the text says now.  They had to develop by some impetus.
==The Butler in Kubrick's ''The Shining''==


::::What is the problem with saying that the social system--in the sense that we're talking about--the modern era--was at its most rigid during the Edwardian era? Or that World War I and its aftermath would change that?  It was, and it did.
''Might this line or something like it be added?''


::::Now, historians debate time and extent of changes, and chicken-or-egg type questions, and I’m happy to engage in those, but I’m not about to prove that the world is round, even if I could (my History of Europe is packed up with everything else, or I would hit you over the head with it).  Even a cursory glance at the ‘Net shows many sites with references to the development of social classes following industrialisation. The conditions that Dickens and Hugo deplored didn't just materialize overnight.  Really, I do not understand what the problem is.
"One of the eeriest scenes in Stanley Kubrick’s acclaimed film ''The Shining'' (1980) features the important character Delbert Grady, a butler working at a July 4, 1921 party at the Overlook Hotel."
::::[[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 17:49, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
:I wouldn't, just because this strikes me as trivia; I don't actually remember this bit.  Why not put this into the catalog?  And I would change "scene" to "sequence" to satisfy the purists. [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 18:58, 30 October 2007 (CDT)


:::::You could get around this problem by talking about massive social inequalities, rather than using specific words like stratification and class. The feudal period was probably more stratified than the capitalist one, although you could not easily use the word class for peasantry.  
==Modern art==
*http://www.magnoliaeditions.com/Content/Stock/Stock.htm


:::::I suppose the rigidity of the Edwardian period that you mention is that, after the great changes of the Victorian period there was the beginning of economic decline alongside established structures. So the new rich held onto their status and wealth very strongly; but, this was also the period of the development of the primitive early welfare state and the socialist movement... Better to avoid simple descriptions with all of these things, I think, Aleta. --[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 18:43, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
==Rent-a-Butler==
*http://www.butlerforyou.com/


== Parlour ==
== Version 1.1 ==
I am not convinced that you can susbtitute ground for parlour. In my understanding of the word, as it was used here, it meant the common living areas of the household [e.g. drawing room, dining room ] as opposed to the personal living quarters [such as bedrooms and bathrooms]. Maybe the parlour was located on the ground, maybe not! Is it so wrong to leave an historical word when recounting history?--[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 22:34, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
This is ready for another approval nomination. Differences are a new section on famous butlers, a variety of new photos (I'll upload enough for a gallery after nomination--been collecting them for a time), a new intro, and a number of important tweaks. [[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 02:20, 27 May 2008 (CDT)
:Yes, it's wrong when no one, including a reasonably educated anglophile like me, can understand what it means.  At least not in a 2007 encyclopedia for the general reader. When I was a kid in Maine, living in big old houses, and then much later in San Francisco, in big old apartments (dating from the 1890s), the word "parlor" clearly meant a *second living room*, generally right next to the first one, with, often, a big archway connecting them.[[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 23:25, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
::After writing the above I decided that maybe I had been a little too curmugeonly without backing up my assertions.  So I looked in the Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th Edition, a pretty standard reference.  On page 902 they give definitions for parlor, parlor car, parlor game, parlor grand, and parlour.  No mention of parlor floor.  On page 1317 of the well-received American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language of about 15 years ago we have parlor, parlor car, parlor game, parlor grand, and parlour.  No mention of parlor floor. Then I consulted the majesterial Merriam-Webster Webster's New International Dictionary, Second Edition, Unabridged.  On page 1779 we have parlor, parlour, parlor boarder, parlor car, parlor ivy, parlor maid (which I think I used to see a lot of in old Agatha Christie stories), parlor match, parlor moss, and parlor palm.  No mention of parlor floor. Here are two suggestions:
:::*We call it the "main floor" or "principal floor".
:::*You research it a little and then you write: "...and sometimes what was occasionally called the 'parlor floor', <ref: Victoria Saxville-Fogie, "Memoirs of Celebrated Victorian Butlers", page 245 ref>
::::[[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 11:15, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
I had already checked some standard references when I made that comment, thus concluding that "parlour floor" was not a common term. My suggestion is to leave it as parlour floor and put a footnote, explaining what we think it means -- i.e. the main floor used by all the household.--[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 14:10, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
:Sure, that would work.  But can you cite at least one reference giving, more or less, that meaning? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 14:41, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
:::Martin is exactly right.  Emily Post described the "parlour floor" in her detailed descriptions of the workings of servants in great houses.  She was, of course, American, so presumably at the turn of the Century, the sort of people who read etiquette books would know what she was talking about.
:::It appears to me that the location of parlour, sitting room, library etc. was all variable. As Martin says, Mrs Post would have been distinguishing between main living spaces and personal quarters.  One cannot say "ground floor" because these rooms might not have been located there.
:::[[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 17:59, 16 August 2007 (CDT)


::::I am so happy that my inspired guess was correct. Thank you, Aleta! The question is, whether to leave it as "main floor" [as Stephen has amended it] or some more complex explanation, along the lines that Aleta has furnished. We need to approve the article tomorrow, so it would be good to do it quickly. --[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 18:13, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
:Alright, I think I am done now. We all now know more about butlers than we ever thought there was to even know. :-)
Hayford, I can't find any reference to Memoirs of Celebrated Victorian Butlers, where did you find out about that publication? &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 14:03, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
:I'm afraid that my tongue was pretty much in my cheek on that one -- I was just trying to provide an example of what I thought should be done. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 14:41, 16 August 2007 (CDT)


::Ah, I see.  My jaw was dropping at the notion of such a book, because my research turned up that such memoirs just don't really exist, for obvious reasons of the confidential nature of the position, and because, well, they were working so their boss has leisure time to do the writing. &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 16:08, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
:If someone want to take a stab at improving the intro further, please do so.  I seem to have a writer's block about it. [[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 04:22, 31 May 2008 (CDT)


== What the Butler Saw ==
Can we add the photos to the gallery?  It would be a shame to lose the one photo that is in the current approved article but is not in the new draft up for approval. [[User:Tom Kelly|Tom Kelly]] 21:45, 1 June 2008 (CDT)
Surely no lengthy discussion of butlering would be complete without at least a mention of What the Butler Saw? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 11:17, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
:In fact I think there are a couple or a few photos in the approved article that may be "lost" if the draft is approved.  I think we should just copy all of the photos to the gallery.  That is what the gallery is for, right? [[User:Tom Kelly|Tom Kelly]] 21:47, 1 June 2008 (CDT)


:What did he see? :-) &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 14:00, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
I'm actually not adequately satisfied that the person in the previous lede photo is a butler; I think he may be a valet. The only photo in the current approved version not in the current draft is just a book cover.  [[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 00:04, 2 June 2008 (CDT)


::I dunno, but it was a well-known early semi-soft core peepshow attraction, I believe.  The phrase entered the language for a while.  And there was, I believe, a Broadway show of that name a while ago. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 14:41, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
== Ferry's Buttling Job Description ==


It's excellent.  I'm placing it here for good keeping:


== Version for approval ==
:The Butler manages all affairs of a household and servicing of principals and guests, providing the service themselves and/or hiring & supervising outside contractors, vendors, housekeeping staff, chef, chauffeur, valet, or personal assistant or secretary, etc. He or she develops manuals, trains staff; makes purchases, and may handle the budget and bookkeeping; runs projects around the estate; and orchestrates social events under the direction of the principals. He or she is knowledgeable in etiquette, protocol, formal service, fine wines and household trappings and specializes in the reception and cosseting of guests, serving of refreshments and meals, maintaining fine silver and china, and valeting.
I hope that we will be approving the current version, which is so much better than the older ones. What is the procedure for doing so? --[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 14:14, 16 August 2007 (CDT)


== Sidenotes ==
[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 23:59, 1 June 2008 (CDT)


Any thoughts on the placement of material in like that, rather than trying to work it into the article?  &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 14:16, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
==Mark Stock section==
:Well, it might be nice to say something brief about the design of the house: what a parlour was, etc. and place it in a sidebar.
I requested Mark Stock look at [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Butler/Draft&oldid=100345914 this version] of the section that discusses his art and offer comment. His reply was "Beautiful Stephen!" [[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 14:17, 2 June 2008 (CDT)
This may not be so easy, we need references. Did anyone look on Wp? --[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 14:43, 16 August 2007 (CDT)


I mean the sidenotes about '''Butlers in Early America''' and '''Butlers in Art''', the material boxed off and to the side. :-) &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 17:57, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
==URL update prior approval ==
::I prefer it; much less disrupting to the narrative flow. [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 18:00, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
The URL for the new approved version needs updating prior approval. [[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 23:47, 4 June 2008 (CDT)
:Done. I changed in the text the verb "buttle"or its derivatives to "butler" as the latter is British English (the article's chosen variant). Hope you don't mind too much, Stephen. [[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 04:01, 5 June 2008 (CDT)


Oh yes, these are excellent! --[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 18:08, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
::Fine! [[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 06:49, 5 June 2008 (CDT)


== Butler's pantry ==
==APPROVED Version 1.1==  
A phrase sometimes seen and heard (it seems to be making a comeback in kitchen remodeling) is "butler's pantry".  It's hard to do a Google for this because of a couple of commercial sites called that but I wonder if it should be mentioned.  For instance, a real estate agent may tell you that "this house has a fabulous kitchen, including a butler's pantry." [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 15:42, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
Alright, an update! [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 20:03, 5 June 2008 (CDT)
:Real Estate agents don't always know what they're talking about. A butler's panty is properly a service room near the kitchen and dining room. Butlers used to have their own room(s) in the biggest houses where they could write their logs, read a paper, do prep--whatever--and the name has stuck. But I have seen real estate ads describing everything from the smallest space that qualifies as a panty, to a true walk-in pantry, as a "butler's pantry". That's not correct. [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 18:08, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
<div class="usermessage plainlinks">Discussion for [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Butler/Draft&oldid=100347765 Version 1.1] stopped here. Please continue further discussion under this break. </div>


''Nominating editor''': Please check for latest version: http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Butler&action=history
== Request: Gallery Subpage ==


: Done! (I think. At least I updated the template)
I am requesting that a gallery subpage be made for this article.  [[User:Tom Kelly|Tom Kelly]] 20:31, 5 June 2008 (CDT)
: Based on a discussion I read on the Approval Process page, I would request NO CHANGES in this article for the next 36-38 hours. Objections or agreements only. All the principals involved appear to believe that it is finished. If you disagree object here (with reasons). Don't edit, please! [[User:Roger Lohmann|Roger Lohmann]] 20:02, 16 August 2007 (CDT)


::Yes, it won't update to a more recent version than the one above [for some reason]. It also likes to repeat editors' names in a drunken style -- couldn't find how to fix that! --[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 20:13, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
:I'd love to fill it with lots of good photos; unfortunately, the perennial frustration is that the surname Butler makes it very difficult to search for photos of butlers - for example, [http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=butler&m=text this]. Help requested! [[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 22:24, 5 June 2008 (CDT)


== While / Whilst ==
==Name of the country now known as the UK==
I have reverted an edit which changed all instances of Britain to UK, as the UK did not exist in the 19th century. The formal name was Great Britain, Since there is also a reference to modern times, we have written "Britain" throughout, as a compromise name.[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 13:43, 31 August 2008 (CDT)


Would someone versed check for this in the article with their browser's search word function? &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 02:52, 17 August 2007 (CDT)
: The United Kingdom came into being in the 18th century. Your revert changed back every instance, despite the contexts being (per change) [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Butler/Draft#Elizabethan_through_Victorian_eras 1861,] [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Butler/Draft#The_modern_butler World War II] and [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Butler/Draft#The_modern_butler 2007]. I am reverting the final two to the original edit. I'm sure we can discuss the first one. --[[User:Mal McKee|Mal McKee]] 15:00, 31 August 2008 (CDT)


Why are you worrying about this? The normal use of whilst is simply before a vowel, but in modern English this is optional anyway. --[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 03:05, 17 August 2007 (CDT)
==Interesting==
http://www.butlerschool.com/interesting_facts.htm [[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 05:16, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 14:29, 2 October 2013

This article has a Citable Version.
 Main Article
 Discussion
Related Articles  [?]
Bibliography  [?]
External Links  [?]
Citable Version  [?]
Catalogs [?]
Gallery [?]
Video [?]
 
To learn how to update the categories for this article, see here. To update categories, edit the metadata template.
 Definition:  Manages all affairs of a household and servicing of principals and guests, providing the service themselves and/or hiring and supervising outside contractors, vendors, housekeeping staff, chef, chauffeur, valet, or personal assistant or secretary. [d] [e]
Checklist and Archives
 Workgroup categories:  Sociology and Anthropology [Categories OK]
 Talk Archive:  1  English language variant:  British English


Fountain pen.png
 NOTICE, please do not remove from top of page.
In lieu of WP notice:

I wrote the original for WP between January and March 2005, and edited through 2006. There was very little input from others, and so I am not ticking the WP box. The reference to the story of Joseph was not part of my original draft, but since it's biblical I feel no qualms about including it, and in any case I have expanded upon the idea and included the chapter. I intend to maintain this article.P

Aleta Curry 18:07, 16 July 2007 (CDT)


APPROVED Version 1.1

Approved artictle, congratulations! Aleksander Stos 03:54, 18 August 2007 (CDT)

Discussion for Version 1.1 stopped here. Please continue further discussion under this break.
For article re-approval, see here for help.

Well Done!

Kudos to everyone who worked on this article, which definitely deserves consideration as featured article of the week. Those who still believe revisions and further refinements are necessary should make them and we can make it ready for version 1.2. Roger Lohmann 13:03, 18 August 2007 (CDT)

Toward version 1.2

I plan to work on material for subpages for this. I am hoping that will even include an image gallery of modern butlers in action, if a photo request in the Modern Butlers' Journal works as hoped. We should also add a Sidenote box on how Butler became a surname. There is a journal article that covers this, as I recall.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 04:49, 19 August 2007 (CDT)

Signed article for Butler

User:Steven Ferry might be willing to contribute a signed article, if approached. I think it'd be great to have an article on the specific attitudes and skills needed to be a quality butler. Thoughts?  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 13:18, 20 August 2007 (CDT)

Certainly, why not?
As an aside, I also think that since SF is the most-quoted person in the article, it should say more about his expertise than "an author". I'd like to see an addition about his work regarding butlers in the hospitality field (as opposed to private service).
Roger has also suggested a signed article on "The Butler Did It!" - the butler in the classic murder mystery. I like that idea, too, if we can find someone. Aleta Curry 17:38, 20 August 2007 (CDT)

I just noticed this entry from 2007 August. I am happy to provide it if still required. And if someone were to explain the significance/requirements of a "signed article." Steven Ferry 10:23, 26 February 2008 (CST)

Diary of a butler

See http://www.abutlersdiary.blogspot.com/  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 01:14, 2 September 2007 (CDT)

Layout on widescreen monitors

See Image:Butler.gif. Image:Pincera-schenker.jpg and the "Butlers in early America" sidenote box are forced into the middle of the screen. This should be fixed, possibly by rearranging the images and the sidenote box. Kjetil Ree 07:21, 19 August 2007 (CDT)

Kjetil, It's be great if you could fix this first on the draft article as soon as you can. I don't have a widescreen monitor so don't see what you see. The current layout looks perfect on mine.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 15:11, 19 August 2007 (CDT)
Well, I don't have a widescreen monitor myself. I will try to fix it the next time I use one (i.e. the next time I visit my father) Kjetil Ree 12:06, 22 August 2007 (CDT)
I have now fixed it (I bought a 22 inch monitor the other day). Does it still look good on smaller monitors? If so, could we update the approved version? --Kjetil Ree 18:12, 27 October 2007 (CDT)

Emily Post...

...was long dead by 1997, so she didn't write anything. That should be changed *immmediately*, before this gets feature-of-the-week status. The original citation was correct for the edition by Elizabeth L. Post (Peggy, I think) If an updated edition is to be cited, please check a) the author (there are now several Post heirs writing Emily Post's etiquette) b) the date c) that the material quoted made it into this edition. Aleta Curry 17:28, 20 August 2007 (CDT)

If you look on Googlebook you will find several books with the same title. The one dated 1997 has Emily Post as author, along with Peggy Post. I suppose this means that the reference is not too bad, and we can be forgiven for omitting a second author of the same family name... But it should bge corrcted for the next version.--Martin Baldwin-Edwards 17:39, 20 August 2007 (CDT)
???? I know there were several books with the same title. The point is that at least two prior editions gave Elizabeth L. Post as the author; the books had many quotes from Emily's original work. Do you have a copy of the cover? Unless this was a reprint, or a special combined thingy--like that constructed video of Natalie Cole singing with her father--I don't care what Googlebooks said: Mrs Emily Post was deceased. Aleta Curry 17:49, 20 August 2007 (CDT)
Aleta: the date of publication has nothing to do with whether the author is alive or dead! This is a small problem, honestly.--Martin Baldwin-Edwards 18:04, 20 August 2007 (CDT)
I must've just gotten off the bus in The Twilight Zone. I'm questioning the authorship, Martin! I give up. Who *is* on first? Aleta Curry 18:50, 20 August 2007 (CDT)

Aleta, I have already told you that it is jointly authored. The fact that an author is dead has no relation to the date of publication. The book is an edited reprint of an earlier book by Emily Post, and is not correctly referenced on the page but it is a minor error which should be corrected in the next approved version. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 19:43, 20 August 2007 (CDT)

All I can say is that I have held a different notion as to what an "edited reprint" is. This still has no bearing on your having dismissed what I think is the more pressing issue; that the 1997 edition may not contain the cited material. Then again, it may. I don't know. Do you? Aleta Curry 17:40, 21 August 2007 (CDT)
I have no idea. Who put the material here?--Martin Baldwin-Edwards 22:35, 21 August 2007 (CDT)

User:Richard Jensen did. BTW, I have a book here by an author published 14 years after that author's death.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 02:46, 22 August 2007 (CDT)

Yes, otherwise why would we see things like "W. Shakespeare (1967): Much Ado about Nothing." ? The date of publication is determined by the publisher, whose decision is itself determined by copyright ownership agreements. In the case of edited reprints, it is a bit messy. I think this case has the daughter's name first, and the original author as second: so, our reference is technically not correct but is not so badly wrong as to worry about too much. I will ask Jensen about it. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 02:57, 22 August 2007 (CDT)
For G** sake, I never said that no one's work could ever be published posthumously. Aleta Curry 17:11, 22 August 2007 (CDT)
It's fixed, ready for the next approved version.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 18:48, 22 August 2007 (CDT)

Starkey

I still object strongly to the wording of that sentence regarding complaints about Starkey. If there are "numerous complaints", there should also be numerous citations. If people with first hand knowledge are unwilling to put their names to their complaints, then why is CZ doing so, as if we had first hand knowledge? That is poor scholarship. Aleta Curry 17:41, 20 August 2007 (CDT)

Read the article cited. Count the number of former employees interviewed. "Numerous" is a fair term to describe the number. This story is not going to be the sort of story that national press picks up, because this is a specialized topic. It is covered only because the schol is in the region of the publication. It is the difference between making editorial decisions between material on Oprah Winfrey, who is known globally, and Starkey who is known only to those in a specialized industry and within a region apart from those in that industry. One cannot apply the Oprah standard to the Starkey article--this should go completely without saying, as well as that some former employees would wish to remain unnamed due to retaliation issues, which are a very, very real concern at times, having lived through such things myself as a whistle-blower. Besides, if one knows how the press operates...one outlet picks up on something and then the hundreds of others do, so it becomes more complex at evaluating "multiple articles", with multiplicity often meaning nothing but that others want to cash in. A Reuters article I was once interviewed for--the article, or info from it, was covered in HUNDREDS of major and many more minor outlets, but I was only interviewed once. The core question is: is the article about Starkey credible? Very clearly, it is. If it were not, Starkey herself would not even appear in it to try to respond to the criticisms! Not recognizing that evaluating a source hinges on a veritable complex of factors rather simplistic criteria of "did they all give their names?", period, and "did it get reported more than once", period, is where poor scholarship comes in. I'd expect that sort of thinking at WP ("must be the subject of multiple reports", yada yada), but here we can apply more sophisticated criteria. Moreover, NOT making brief mention of the criticisms, as if we were to say "we have knowledge better and on the contrary", is where irresponsibility would come in.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 02:15, 22 August 2007 (CDT)
Stephen, you've completely missed the point and gone off on tangents. It is not about whether or not we report what has been said, it is about stating that we know for a fact that what has been said is true. And I did, actually, read the article. Aleta Curry 17:15, 22 August 2007 (CDT)
What I have said goes to the heart of the matter. Look at it this way: The program has been criticized. Do you doubt this?  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 17:59, 22 August 2007 (CDT)
In a word, "no". Aleta Curry 00:50, 23 August 2007 (CDT)

Gallery

Magnums Butlers May 2006.jpg

A courtesy request for photos for a gallery of modern butlers in action will go out in the next issue of Modern Butlers’ Journal, due out in 3 weeks.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 00:26, 23 August 2007 (CDT)

Well, that's jolly nice of them, I must say. Good thinking, 99! Aleta Curry 00:53, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
...and it is slated to contain a link to this article. 8-)  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 01:49, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
I have four images from Jospehine Ive. I've uploaded one so far.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 03:40, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
http://www.modernbutlers.com/MBJVol3Iss3.pdf Stephen Ewen 20:03, 18 October 2007 (CDT)

Butlering in India

What was the classical butler paid

There's no mention at all of what butlers in the good old days were paid. Surely they didn't work for free? Certainly something more than just room and board. But what could they spend their money on? They didn't apparently have much time off. Seems to me that in British novels there were occasional references to so-and-so the butler, who, upon retirement, bought a modest pub in the neighborhood and reigned there thereafter. In fact, the whole question of salaries in great houses, of, let's say the high Victorian era, ought to be the focus of an article. Here we've got a house with Mama and Papa and four kids and maybe *18* servants to take care of them. What on earth are they being paid? Hayford Peirce 18:55, 28 August 2007 (CDT)

Found and added info from the Victorian era. Stephen Ewen 04:19, 31 May 2008 (CDT)

External link

The Butler in Kubrick's The Shining

Might this line or something like it be added?

"One of the eeriest scenes in Stanley Kubrick’s acclaimed film The Shining (1980) features the important character Delbert Grady, a butler working at a July 4, 1921 party at the Overlook Hotel."

I wouldn't, just because this strikes me as trivia; I don't actually remember this bit. Why not put this into the catalog? And I would change "scene" to "sequence" to satisfy the purists. Aleta Curry 18:58, 30 October 2007 (CDT)

Modern art

Rent-a-Butler

Version 1.1

This is ready for another approval nomination. Differences are a new section on famous butlers, a variety of new photos (I'll upload enough for a gallery after nomination--been collecting them for a time), a new intro, and a number of important tweaks. Stephen Ewen 02:20, 27 May 2008 (CDT)

Alright, I think I am done now. We all now know more about butlers than we ever thought there was to even know. :-)
If someone want to take a stab at improving the intro further, please do so. I seem to have a writer's block about it. Stephen Ewen 04:22, 31 May 2008 (CDT)

Can we add the photos to the gallery? It would be a shame to lose the one photo that is in the current approved article but is not in the new draft up for approval. Tom Kelly 21:45, 1 June 2008 (CDT)

In fact I think there are a couple or a few photos in the approved article that may be "lost" if the draft is approved. I think we should just copy all of the photos to the gallery. That is what the gallery is for, right? Tom Kelly 21:47, 1 June 2008 (CDT)

I'm actually not adequately satisfied that the person in the previous lede photo is a butler; I think he may be a valet. The only photo in the current approved version not in the current draft is just a book cover. Stephen Ewen 00:04, 2 June 2008 (CDT)

Ferry's Buttling Job Description

It's excellent. I'm placing it here for good keeping:

The Butler manages all affairs of a household and servicing of principals and guests, providing the service themselves and/or hiring & supervising outside contractors, vendors, housekeeping staff, chef, chauffeur, valet, or personal assistant or secretary, etc. He or she develops manuals, trains staff; makes purchases, and may handle the budget and bookkeeping; runs projects around the estate; and orchestrates social events under the direction of the principals. He or she is knowledgeable in etiquette, protocol, formal service, fine wines and household trappings and specializes in the reception and cosseting of guests, serving of refreshments and meals, maintaining fine silver and china, and valeting.

Stephen Ewen 23:59, 1 June 2008 (CDT)

Mark Stock section

I requested Mark Stock look at this version of the section that discusses his art and offer comment. His reply was "Beautiful Stephen!" Stephen Ewen 14:17, 2 June 2008 (CDT)

URL update prior approval

The URL for the new approved version needs updating prior approval. Stephen Ewen 23:47, 4 June 2008 (CDT)

Done. I changed in the text the verb "buttle"or its derivatives to "butler" as the latter is British English (the article's chosen variant). Hope you don't mind too much, Stephen. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 04:01, 5 June 2008 (CDT)
Fine! Stephen Ewen 06:49, 5 June 2008 (CDT)

APPROVED Version 1.1

Alright, an update! D. Matt Innis 20:03, 5 June 2008 (CDT)

Discussion for Version 1.1 stopped here. Please continue further discussion under this break.

Request: Gallery Subpage

I am requesting that a gallery subpage be made for this article. Tom Kelly 20:31, 5 June 2008 (CDT)

I'd love to fill it with lots of good photos; unfortunately, the perennial frustration is that the surname Butler makes it very difficult to search for photos of butlers - for example, this. Help requested! Stephen Ewen 22:24, 5 June 2008 (CDT)

Name of the country now known as the UK

I have reverted an edit which changed all instances of Britain to UK, as the UK did not exist in the 19th century. The formal name was Great Britain, Since there is also a reference to modern times, we have written "Britain" throughout, as a compromise name.Martin Baldwin-Edwards 13:43, 31 August 2008 (CDT)

The United Kingdom came into being in the 18th century. Your revert changed back every instance, despite the contexts being (per change) 1861, World War II and 2007. I am reverting the final two to the original edit. I'm sure we can discuss the first one. --Mal McKee 15:00, 31 August 2008 (CDT)

Interesting

http://www.butlerschool.com/interesting_facts.htm Stephen Ewen 05:16, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://citizendium.org/wiki/index.php?title=Talk:Butler/Draft&oldid=30099"