Talk:Spanish Civil War

Materials needed

Any help in getting maps together, famous photo's and paintings etc. as well as extracts from some of the writers who fought in the war would be very welcome. Also, I could do with a little help from someone adding more detail to the operations sections as I am only skirting over them with only small detail. Denis Cavanagh 10:20, 17 April 2008 (CDT)

Foreign fighters

Worth noting -- not all the foreign volunteers who aided the Republicans served in the International Brigades. George Orwell, for instance, enlisted with the POUM, a militia unit. ...said George Swan (talk) 14:29, 30 April 2008

Guernica

I'd been reading about the bombing of Guerneca for decades. A couple of months ago I saw a documentary about Guernica. Its description of the bombing had a relatively small number of relatively low pay-load German planes making many repeated sorties over the course of the bombardment. From my viewing it sounds like the relatively high number of casualties were due to zero civil defense, no Republican fighter cover, and no Republican anti-aircraft weapons.

Our article currently says 1,000 civilians were killed. Weren't there claims, closer to the event, that 10,000 civilians died? Of course, on one level, it doesn't matter if it was one hundred civilians, or a thousand.

The reason I am mentioning this is that I am concerned the stats on Guernica are not very reliable. ...said George Swan (talk) 14:29, 30 April 2008

I have a book specifically on the Guernica bombings:

Gordan Thomas, Max Morgan Witts, Guernica: Crucible of World War II

They seem to have taken a lot of care to try and find original sources (both documentary and interviews), and on both sides. I don't have time to read it through, and give you my own impression as to how accurate it is, but from what I see it seems quite careful and even-handed.

They give the town's population in July, 1936 as 7,000. It may have been swelled somewhat by refugees, but a death toll of 10,000 seems highly implausible. They don't give a total death toll, but they do give scattered death counts: "over two hundred" in one of the many raids, and "over three hundred bodies recovered" at one point. It speaks of various witnesses seeing hundreds of bodies. However, it isn't made clear if these are all different, or what,. The fact that don't give a total may indicate that they felt it was impossible to do so accurately. They do say that 70% of the buildings in town were destroyed, but whether directly by bombs, or by the fires that burned for about 16 hours, they don't say (and perhaps nobody knows).

What is described as the standard history,

Hugh Thomas, The Spanish Civil War

gives a death toll of 1,654. Another history:

Peter Wyden, The Passionate War

says "more realistic estimates range between 1,000 and 1,654". This book also says 271 of more than 300 buildings were destroyed. It quotes Noel Monks, of the Daily Express, as having personally counted more than 800 bodies. Given that many would have been entombed in rubble, basements, etc this is of course low.

I think you could safely describe the death toll as 'over 1,000'. J. Noel Chiappa 17:10, 30 April 2008 (CDT)

Oh, the 'raid' consisted of a number of separate raids. Most (all?) used mixed forces of bombers and fighters. The bombers were all medium bombers; the older Ju-52 transport plane adaption, and the newer He-111. The total raid sizes were small by WWII standards (4 to 20 bombers), but large at the time. The Ju-52's carried a bomb load of about 5,000 pounds each - fairly considerable, at that stage of technology.

I think your assessment of the reasons for the death toll are accurate (along of course with the lack of civil defense shelters, and the German bombing tactics). J. Noel Chiappa 17:36, 30 April 2008 (CDT)

Ah. Good. Thanks. George Swan 22:33, 30 April 2008 (CDT)

also worth noting?

Also worth noting -- Norman Bethune set up the first mobile blank, for the Republicans, before he left for China. ...said George Swan (talk) 14:29, 30 April 2008

Fifth column

The term "fifth columnist" comes from something Franco wrote. Something about four columns approaching to attack the city of Madrid, from the four cardinal directions, while meanwhile a fifth column was going to rise from within the city itself. ...said George Swan (talk) 14:29, 30 April 2008

"Basques are an ancient Celtic people"?

The article currently says that "Basques are an ancient Celtic people". I believe the Basques presence in Spain predates the arrival of the Celts. I believe that their language is one of those unrelated to the Indo-European languages. Cheers! George Swan 14:36, 30 April 2008 (CDT)

I had it as 'Ancient People'. Some other user added the celtic part. I thought that was a little strange, as I'd never been under the impression they were a celtic people either but didn't know enough to dispute the point. Denis Cavanagh 17:56, 30 April 2008 (CDT)