View source for Talk:Breast cancer/Archive 1

{{subpages}}

== Avoid a Wikipedia role ==

I would strongly object to considering this a Wikipedia import, and making sure there is no Wikipedia text in the article. There are several Citizens quite capable of writing original content for this article.  

Right now, there are discussions about licensing and competitive positioning that argue about being very restrictive on Wikipedia importing, especially when WP is importing CZ articles and then gets higher Google ratings. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 11:33, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

: It isn't marked as a WP import, but as "some content may have appeared on WP". If you have a look at [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Breast_cancer&diff=100688495&oldid=100112795 this diff], you will see that lots of paragraphs are unchanged from the original version that was imported from WP. As it stands, we must include the WP flag. It would be nice if we could remove all the WP content however. --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 11:38, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

::Without writing a script, do you know of a tool that could show the WP material underscored or something else that will be visible on a monochrome printer?  Ideally, it would be nice to see WP content on a WYSWIG editor.

::Another challenge -- I was thinking of illustrations, but I am reminded of Hayford's desire not to see gore. Microscopic anatomy is no problem, but, while a photograph or detailed drawing of peau d'orange would explain better than words, it both might be disturbing to some, and, further, is what others point out involves nudity. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 16:30, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

::: No, I'm afraid I know of no such tool, and a quick google didn't come up with anything either. 

::: With regards to the images... I have no clue either. Personally I have no objection to any image that conforms to law, but then I'm not squeemish and I'm not a parent. --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 18:20, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

==Approval==
I'm afraid that as of July 17, this lacks a good deal to be Approval-ready. For example, the pathological classification has only redlinks.  There is no detailed discussion of the issues of aromatase inhibitors vs. tamoxifen in pre- and post-menopausal patients.

History is not just ancient -- the  impact of the low-dose CMF adjuvant regimen in the mid-seventies rates discussion, and, for that matter, less effective palliation such as Cooper 5-drug. The evolution of the radical mastectomy, and the movement away from it, is historically important. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 11:33, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

:I'm adding sourced notes on the evolution of chemotherapy. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 18:52, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

::I haven't read the article in detail, but simply judging from what I have seen of it, I agree that it is not yet ready for approval. Some of the problems: Some of the sections are not really linked to each other in the sense of the coherent narrative we are striving for. Why is history section at the end? Why are ''[[BRCA1 gene]]'' and ''[[BRCA2 gene]]'' each linked seven times? Also, I think this really should be in the biology group, but since this would give me editorship on the article, I will not perform this change myself. Furthermore, I think we may have a policy hole in cases where a significant WP contributor acts as an Editor for a CZ article imported from WP, though I cannot say whether this is the case here. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 13:57, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

::: I agree that this should be biology, so I added it. I think that there has been a significantly long time since issues were raised and the original editor has not said anything about them - or indeed edited any page on the entire wiki - that we can say there is significant reason to doubt that we should approve it. I think someone needs to contact the original editor, probably by email. In the mean time, what is the procedure if they don't come back? I know another Health sciences (or now Biology) Editor can cancel the nomination, but other than that is there a time limit on responding to these things? --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 14:26, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

::::Thanks, Chris &mdash; I extended the approval period, and we now have sufficient time to bring it up to shape. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 14:59, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
:::::Support approving article. Well written and concise. Would suggest recasting the sentence "Seventy percent of the time..." at it's best NOT to start a sentence with a number. [[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 16:54, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

::::::Can't support Approval, having made a number of edits adding content in missing areas, but also seeing other major areas that simply have no information. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 19:10, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

::::::: I also note that there remains [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Breast_cancer&diff=100689774&oldid=100112795 large chunks unchanged from the Wikipedia original]. --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 19:37, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

::::::::I don't see how we can Approve an article with large chunks of WP material in it without making us into laughing stocks unless the person who brought it in here ALSO wrote ALL the WP material.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 19:46, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

== Version ==

Jonas has nominated a version from three months ago?  Is this a mistake?  There have been numerous edits to the article since then -- are none of them worth having in the Approved version?  I looked at the *original* article brought in from WP a couple of years ago.  There have been *many* edits to the article since then, but, as other people are saying, it looks to me as if there may still be *massive* amounts of WP material here.  I don't say I wouldn't, but I would feel awfully uneasy about Approving this article on the basis of a single Editor's say-so.  Especially since Jonas, who, goodness knows has a truly impressive set of credentials in the field, only joined the Project two days ago and has not, shall we say, had much time to familiarize himself with our ''zeitgeist''. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 18:45, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

: The version that Jonas nominated was the current version when he started the nomination process. All the edits since then have occured since nomination began. I am VERY concerned about just how much of this article is from WP, and personally I am hoping that approval is postponed (quite possibly for some time). However, I am not an editor in a related workgroup nor am I particularly knowledgable about the topic of the article. Howard appears apposed to the approval also, but he is also not an editor in a related workgroup.
: The following are active editors in the Health Sciences workgroup: [[User:Robert Badgett]], [[User:Gareth Leng]], [[User:Supten Sarbadhikari]], [[User:Anthony.Sebastian]]. Perhaps one (or more) of them should be contacted for their opinion. 
: Of course, it may be a good idea to contact Jonas also. According to the approval process, "the existence of unanswered author critiques" is reason enough to doubt editor support. --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 19:02, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

::Ah, I was in a hurry -- I hadn't registered that *all* the subsequent edits had been in the last day or so. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 20:08, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

== Authority on the squeamish ==

Hayford, I know of some informative images, which I would not inflict on any unexpecting reader, but would be useful to someone prepared for them and wanting that level of detail. I could set them up as external links, but, from reasonable comments you've made, I think it's a good idea to mark internal or external links with some disclaimer. 

While I have distaste for the mealymouthed "viewer discretion is advised", I'm thinking of one photograph of inflammatory breast disease, which I found useful even though I can easily see how it would upset stomachs. Any suggestions on an appropriate disclaimer? [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 18:56, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

{| class="collapsible collapsed" style="border: solid; float:right; width:275px;"
!align=center colspan=3 style="background:#{{{color}}}"| This box contains graphic medical photos that some readers may find disturbing.
|-
|{{Image|User Chris Key.jpg|right|250px|I'm not slacking, my code is compiling...}}
|}
: Who needs external links? See box on right. --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 19:13, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

::That would work, I think, if in order to see the pix one has to *click* on the box. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 20:07, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

:::Very nice, Chris, although I'm not sure about the box content. :-) [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 20:09, 17 July 2010 (UTC)